2
1 APPEARANCES :
2 GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
4
5 Attorneys for Petitioner
6
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
7 The
8 Suite 403
9
10 Attorney for Respondents
11
12 INDEX
Page
13 WITNESS
MICHAEL SCHIAVO
14 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 20
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 74
15 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 89
16 SCOTT SCHIAVO
Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 90
17 Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 108
Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 117
18
JAMES BARNHILL, MD
Direct Examination by Ms. Felos 121
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 159
Redirect Examination by Ms. Felos 171
21
EXHIBITS - PETITIONER'S
22 Page
Exhibit No. 1 25
23 Exhibit No. 2 25
Exhibit No. 3 56
24 Exhibit No. 4 71
Exhibit No. 5 134
25
(177)
1 APPEARANCES:
GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
4
Attorneys for Petitioner
5
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
6 The
7 Suite 403
8
Attorney for Respondents
9
10 INDEX
Page
11
WITNESS
12
FATHER GERARD MURPHY
13 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 178
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Campbell 185
14 Direct Examination Continued 187
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 203
15 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 218
Recross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 223
16
JOAN SCHIAVO
17 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 224
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 237
i8 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 244
19 VINCENT GAMBONE, MD
Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 246
20 Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 260
Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 275
21
BEVERLY TYLER
22 Direct Examination by Mr. Fe-Los 281
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 307
23 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 319
24 Petitioner Rests 323
25
(326)
APPEARANCES:
GEORGE C. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
Attorneys for Petitioner
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
The
Attorney for Respondents
INDEX
Page
WITNESS
MARY SCHINDLER
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 328
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 398
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 439
Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 444
Further Redirect Examination 464
Further Recross-Examination 468
MICHAEL VITADAMO
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 446
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Felos 449
Direct Examination Continued 462
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 463
ROBERT SCHINDLER, JR.
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 475
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 492
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 510
EXHIBITS
Page
Respondent's Exhibit 1 463
(517)
1 APPEARANCES:
2
GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
3 CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
4
5 Attorneys for Petitioner
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
The
8
9 Attorney for Respondents
10 INDEX
Page
11 WITNESS
12 SUZANNE CARR
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 518
13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Felos 529
14 ROBERT SCHINDLER
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 549
15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 599
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 661
16 Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 665
Further Redirect Examination 670
17 Further Recross-Examination 672
18 MARY SCHINDLER
Further Redirect Examination 675
19 Further Recross-Examination 677
20
22
23
24
25
(681)
APPEARANCES:
GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
Attorneys for Petitioner
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
The
Attorney for Respondents
INDEX
Page
WITNESS
RICHARD PEARSE
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 682
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 702
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 749
Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 755
Further Redirect Examination 756
Further Recross-Examination 757
DIANE MEYER
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 762
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 774
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 792
Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 795
JACKIE RHODES
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 799
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 317
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 830
Respondents Rest 833
EXHIBITS
Page
Petitioner's Exhibit 8 833
(841)
1 APPEARANCES:
2 GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
4 Attorneys for Petitioner
5
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
6 The
7 Suite 403
8 Attorney for Respondents
9
10 INDEX
Page
11 WITNESS
JAMES BARNHILL, MD
12 Rebuttal Direct by Ms. Felos 842
Rebuttal Cross by Ms. Campbell 862
13 Rebuttal Redirect by Ms. Felos 863
14 ELLEN DELANCEY
Rebuttal Direct by Mr. Felos 865
15 Rebuttal Cross by Ms. Campbell 869
Rebuttal Redirect by Mr. Felos 870
16 BRIAN SCHIAVO
17 Proffer Examination by Mr. Felos 882
18 JOAN SCHIAVO
Rebuttal Direct by Mr. Felos 886
19 DIANE COMES
20 Rebuttal Direct by Mr. Felos 888
Rebuttal Cross by Ms. Campbell 893
21 MICHAEL SCHIAVO
22 Rebuttal Direct by Mr. Felos 893
23 JAMES SHEEHAN
Rebuttal Direct by Mr. Felos 910
24 Rebuttal Cross by Ms. Campbell 913
Rebuttal Redirect by Mr. Felos 916
25
5
1 Your Honor, in this case there are no winners.
2 Whatever the outcome of this case, everyone has
3 lost. A little less than ten years ago, February
4 1990, a beautiful vivacious young woman's heart
5 stopped beating. Her brain was deprived of oxygen
6 and since that time she's existed in a permanent
7 vegetative state, whereas her parents have agreed
8 in the pleadings, it's an irreversible, profoundly
9 debilitating condition.
10 On that day close to ten years ago, my
11 client, Mr. Schiavo, lost the wife he knew. Her
12 parents lost their dreams and hopes of a full life
13 with their daughter and her siblings, and friends
14 lost a shining presence in their lives. So in
15 this case, there is no final judgment order,
16 decree, that can ever bring Theresa Schiavo back.
17 If this Court grants the petition and
18 permits Theresa Schiavo's artificial life support
19 to be removed, all the parties will have to suffer
20 the agony of watching a beloved one die, even
21 though it is my client's belief and wish that is
22 what his wife wanted. If this Court does not
23 grant the petition, Theresa Schiavo's body will be
24 maintained in this condition, perhaps for decades,
25 and there is--no-victory or win in that for anyone.
6
1 The evidence will show in this case that
2 Theresa had a conventional childhood. She was
3 brought up by her parents. They were practicing
4 Catholics at the time. She meets Michael in
5 community college in the
6 fell in love. They married. They lived there
7 from, as a married couple, from 1984 to 1986.
8 They met in 1982. They had a family oriented life
9 in
10 family.
11 They moved to
12 worked for Prudential Insurance and he worked in
13 food service management as a restaurant manager,
14 assistant restaurant manager, working nights. You
15 will also hear evidence that Theresa once had a
16 weight problem. Was heavy in her early adulthood
17 and lost a significant amount of weight. You will
18 hear evidence that Theresa wanted to become
19 pregnant. Wanted to have a family. Was under a
20 doctor's care to become pregnant, and while under
21 that doctor's care, developed a potassium
22 imbalance which caused her heart to stop beating,
23 which caused the incident in question.
24 You will hear much evidence as to how
25 Mr. Schiavo cared for his wife. Fought for his
7
1 wife. Fought to get experimental treatment for
2 his wife. Raised funds for his wife to go out to
3
4 stimulate her brain. Engaged in fund raisers.
5 How he stayed with her for day and night for
6 periods of years. How he has been termed, as he
7 has been termed, as a nursing home administrator's
8 worst nightmare. How he has gotten for Theresa a
9 level of care that most other patients would not
10 have received.
11 You will hear evidence how he hired a
12 private aide over a 2-year period to take Theresa
13 out to museums, hairdressers, beauty makeovers, to
14 try to stimulate her in some hope that she may
15 improve or may revive. You will also hear
16 evidence from physicians, Your Honor, that there
17 is no hope of recovery for Theresa. That she is
18 in a permanent vegetative condition.
19 You will also hear doctor's evidence
20 that the process of removal of a feeding tube and
21 the death process involved there takes seven to
22 ten days. That a patient does not starve to
23 death. A patient quickly develops an electrolyte
24 imbalance which causes death within a short time,
25 and that death as a result of this process is not
8
1 painful.
2 You will hear disputed evidence as to
3 the cognition of Theresa Schiavo. I am sure you
4 will hear evidence by the respondent that they
5 believe Theresa is aware of their presence.
6 However, it is important for the Court to remember
7 that that is really a non issue in this case. The
8 major issue in this case is what Terri's intent
9 was.
10 And we will present testimony from Mr.
11 Schiavo and his brother and sister-in-law as to
12 conversations Theresa Schiavo had with them in
13 which she stated that if she had to be dependent
14 on the care of others, she would not want to live
15 that way. She would rather die. Also, if she was
16 in that condition, she would not want to be kept
17 alive or maintained artificially. Her wishes were
18 not contingent upon being totally unconscious or
19 vegetative, but broadly expressed in that way. So
20 although there may be dispute in this case as to
21 whether Theresa has some awareness of her
22 surroundings, minimal awareness, it really is a
23 non issue in terms of her expression of intent.
24 There may be some evidence that while
25 Theresa was living with her parents, she may have
9
1 made comments about the Karen Ann Quinlan case.
2 We believe that the Court will not find that
3 evidence particularly credible, and certainly if
4 it is, contrary to her later statements, would
5 have been a change of position for Theresa.
6 You will also receive testimony, Your
7 Honor, from some experts. One will be an expert
8 witness testifying as to the doctrine and policies
9 of the Catholic church regarding artificial life
10 support. That testimony will show that the
11 request of the petitioner in this case is highly
12 consistent with the teachings of the Catholic
13 faith.
14 You will also hear evidence from an
15 expert in American's attitudes and expressions
16 concerning end of life care, who will also testify
17 that the manner of expression, the manner in which
18 Theresa expressed her wishes, is very consistent
19 with how Americans do that. That usually these
20 statements are made as a catalyst to a particular
21 event and illness of a relative; watching a movie
22 or television program where someone is impaired.
23 That is how these expressions are usually and
24 customarily made.
25 You will also hear in this trial
10
1 testimony regarding the relationship between the
2 parties, the petitioner and respondents, which was
3 a good relationship and a supportive relationship
4 until the malpractice award was given in this
5 case. You will hear evidence that in 1992 a
6 verdict was issued in a medical malpractice case
7 brought on Theresa's behalf and Theresa, the
8 guardianship estate, netted over $700,000 and that
9 Mr. Schiavo netted approximately $300,000 in a
10 loss of consortium award.
11 You will hear evidence -- you will hear
12 testimony from the respondents that there was an
13 alleged agreement between Mr. Schiavo and the
14 respondents that he would split his loss of
15 consortium award with them. You will hear
16 testimony from Mr. Schiavo that that was not the
17 case. You will hear testimony that the
18 respondents were in significant financial
19 difficulties at that time and were upset that they
20 didn't receive a portion of Mr. Schiavo's award.
21 You will hear testimony of basically an
22 unfortunate falling apart of that relationship and
23 also testimony that shortly after that falling
24 apart, the respondents filed a suit in this court
25 to remove Mr. Schiavo as Theresa's guardian
11
1 alleging that he was in a relationship with
2 another woman, that he was not caring for her
3 medically, and that he had a financial conflict of
4 interest. You will hear testimony that that suit
5 was dismissed with prejudice by the respondents.
6 There will be testimony that three years
7 after Theresa's incident, yes, Mr. Schiavo did
8 have a relationship and is in a relationship
9 currently. You will hear testimony that, yes, Mr.
10 Schiavo wants to have a family in the future. He
11 wants to be a father in the future. And you will
12 also hear that that doesn't mean that he doesn't
13 love Terri and will always love Terri and wants
14 what's best for her.
15 You will hear testimony that it's always
16 been the respondents' wish for Mr. Schiavo to move
17 on with his life, and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler take
18 over the guardianship and take over the care of
19 Terri. You will hear testimony regarding the
20 Schindlers' beliefs concerning medical treatment
21 and their wishes concerning Terri. Terri's
22 medical treatment. Some of that evidence, which
23 may be disturbing.
24 You will hear testimony that the
25 Schindlers, if in Terri's condition, would want
12
1 all possible medical treatment to keep them alive
2 at all costs, even if they were permanently
3 unconscious. You will hear testimony that they
4 would choose chemotherapy. They would choose, if
5 they developed gangrene, they would choose to have
6 their limbs amputated to remain in a permanent
7 vegetative condition.
8 You will also hear testimony from
9 Theresa's father that if Terri needed open heart
10 surgery, he would choose to have open heart
11 surgery performed on her rather than have her die.
12 You will hear testimony from her father that if
13 Theresa developed gangrene and limbs needed to be
14 amputated, he would choose to have that for his
15 daughter. You will also hear testimony,
16 Your Honor, that those beliefs and intents have
17 nothing to do with being Catholic or part of the
18 Catholic faith.
19 You will hear -- I am sure you will hear
20 testimony in this case about the guardianship
21 estate, and yes, if Theresa Schiavo dies at this
22 time and the petition is granted, Mr. Schiavo will
23 inherit those funds of Theresa's Schiavo's
24 intestate. You will hear testimony that Mr. and
25 Mrs. Schindler also, if the petition is denied and
13
1 Mr. Schiavo does remarry, will be Theresa's
2 intestate heirs and will inherit.
3 At the end of the evidence, the Court I
4 believe will conclude that Mr. Schiavo is not
5 concerned with finances, with money, financial
6 gain, but always has been concerned with the best
7 interests of his wife. You will also hear
8 evidence regarding the time period that has
9 elapsed since Terri's incident and the request to
10 remove the feeding tube. It has been ten years,
11 and the argument has been made and was made by the
12 guardian ad litem's report that is in the file
13 that that somehow affects Mr. Schiavo's
14 credibility.
15 The Court will hear evidence for the
16 first four years or so that Mr. Schiavo
17 aggressively, aggressively treated or tried to
18 seek treatment for Terri in the hope of recovery.
19 Despite doctor's advice there was no hope, he did
20 not give up hope. And I believe the evidence will
21 show he can't be faulted for trying as hard as he
22 did to help his wife in the hope of recovery.
23 In 1994, at the suggestion of his
24 doctors, the Court will hear that Mr. Schiavo made
25 a decision not to treat an infection, which would
14
1 have resulted in Terri's death. In response to
2 that, Your Honor, the evidence will show that Mr.
3 and Mrs. Schindler amended their petition to
4 remove Mr. Schiavo as guardian, alleging he was
5 not treating the infection and alleging that
6 constituted an abuse of Terri.
7 The evidence will show that at that
8 time, my client was emotionally unable to proceed.
9 After making a decision not to treat an infection,
10 he was attacked for it and not emotionally able to
11 proceed with the removal of the feeding tube.
12 That about a year later, he started to take steps
13 to do that which has resulted in this petition.
14 The Court will, as part of the evidence
15 in this case, review the report of the guardian ad
16 litem and also the suggestion of bias filed in
17 response. The Court will also hear testimony that
18 the guardian ad litem at the time he issued his
19 report had one piece of evidence regarding Terri's
20 intent and that was the statements relayed to him
21 by Mr. Schiavo. You will hear the guardian ad
22 litem testify that had he known of the statements
23 of Mr. Schiavo's brother and sister-in-law, that
24 his conclusions may very well have been
25 different.
15
1 You will also hear testimony regarding
2 the guardian ad litem of his personal feelings
3 regarding removal of feeding tubes. The guardian
4 ad litem has been very candid, and the evidence
5 will show, personally, he has great difficulty
6 with placing removal of artificial provision of
7 sustenance as medical treatment, which is the law
8 in Florida.
9 You will hear testimony of the guardian
10 ad litem to the effect that he believes patients
11 should not have the right, although the Supreme
12 Court of Florida has given the patient the right
13 to cease food and water, in his belief that should
14 not be the case and the patient should not have
15 that right. We will argue to the Court that may
16 have affected the close call, and I use the words
17 of the guardian ad litem, the close call he made
18 in his report.
19 We believe at the conclusion of the case
20 the Court will find clear and convincing evidence
21 that Theresa Schiavo would not want to be kept
22 alive in this condition and would want the feeding
23 tube removed. Also, if it's necessary for the
24 Court's determination, we believe the Court will
25 find the removal of the feeding tube is in Theresa
16
1 Schiavo's best interest. I say, if necessary,
2 Your Honor.
3 Obviously, the primary question before
4 the Court is Theresa's intent. If the Court does
5 not find clear and convincing intent, which we
6 believe the Court will do, but if that should
7 occur, we intend to argue to the Court that the
8 Court does have the authority, absent clear and
9 convincing evidence of intent under a best
0 interest test, to grant the petition.
11 Your Honor, in closing here, while the
12 petitioner agrees that life is sacred and should
13 be preserved, he also believes, and we will
14 suggest to the Court, that neither the law, nor
15 Theresa's religion, or moral dictates would
16 require that life be artificially preserved at all
17 costs. Thank you.
18 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Felos.
19 Ms. Campbell.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: Mr. Felos has already
21 very eloquently and accurately set forth a lot of
22 the history in this case going over the dates and
23 times of the testimony dictated here in the next
24 week. Our differences where we come is as to what
25 the Court will find and also the credibility of
17
1 the witnesses.
2 Mr. Felos has his witnesses that will
3 tell what Ms. Terri Schiavo's wishes would be
4 regarding the feeding tube. You will also hear
5 from our side of it. On our side, you will hear
6 from a long childhood friend of Terri’s. You will
7 also hear from a co-worker that was more closely
8 related to Terri close to the time of the incident
9 of the accident, which was February of 1990.
10 You will hear a lot of medical testimony
11 concerning the persistent vegetative state that
12 Theresa Schiavo currently exists in. We do not
13 doubt she's in a permanent vegetative state.
14 However, a lot goes to the cognitive activity and
15 brain activity of Theresa Schiavo. In reading
16 through some of the medical records, you will hear
17 testimony about her no recognition. However, you
18 will hear testimony from our side there is
19 recognition. She does recognize her mother.
20 There is a videotape we would like for
21 the Court to see, very brief, that is a videotape
22 capturing this relationship between Terri and her
23 mother that was recently taken. The guardian ad
24 litem, Richard Pearse, who was appointed in this
25 case, he will be testifying. The guardian ad
18
1 litem was appointed to investigate and make a
2 report to this Court, which he did, which the
3 court file contains a copy of his report.
4 Mr. Pearse thoroughly investigated the
5 whole case and interviewed various witnesses; met
6 with people at the nursing home staff; saw
7 different physicians; and came to the ultimate
8 conclusion that the feeding tube should be
9 maintained. It's our position here that the
10 guiding case for the court in setting precedence
11 is the Estele Browning case, which sets forth that
12 clear and convincing evidence should be
13 established of the patient's wishes, and that if
14 it's oral evidence, that the petitioner would bear
15 the burden of showing this was by clear and
16 convincing evidence.
17 We do not believe, as the guardian ad
18 litem also found, that the evidence you will hear
19 is credible. We have contradictory evidence that
20 will show in fact that it is not credible as to
21 what her wishes her. You will also hear from her
22 long time childhood friend that when the Karen Ann
23 Quinlan case was being discussed in conversations
24 between Terri Schiavo and this long childhood
25 friend regarding the Karen Ann Quinlan case, which
19
1 we believe ultimately sets forth Terri's beliefs,
2 it would be in the situation she is in one that
3 she would not ultimately choose to be in the
4 situation she is in, but the circumstances she
5 faces, that Theresa Schiavo would want to maintain
6 her feeding tube.
7 As a public policy statement, we also
8 believe the Court is firmly held to review the
9 conflict of interest of Michael Schiavo and the
10 financial situation that would rest in the
11 intestate estate. There is case law precedent to
12 that which we will be arguing in our closing
13 argument that we believe firmly sets forth this
14 conflict of interest. Thank you and good luck for
15 this week.
16 THE COURT: Call your first witness.
17 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor. Call
18 Mr. Schiavo.
19 THE COURT: Call your first witness.
20 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor. Call
21 Mr. Schiavo.
22 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
23 THE COURT.)
24
25
20
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. FELOS:
3 Q State your full name and current address
4 for the record, please.
5 A My name is Michael Schiavo. My address
6 is
7 Q What is your date of birth?
8 A 4-3-63.
9 Q Mr. Schiavo, how are you employed at
10 this time?
11 A I work for Morton Plant/Mease
12 Countryside Hospital as a respiratory therapist.
13 Q Please tell the Court what your
14 employment background is.
15 A I worked for Morton Plant/Mease ever
16 since I became a respiratory therapist five years
17 ago.
18 Q Before that?
19 A I worked for various amounts of
20 restaurants. Right before I got into medical, I
21 worked for Agostino's Restaurant.
22 Q Um-hmm.
23 A Prior to that, I worked for the
24
25 Breckenridge Hotel.
21
1 Q Tell the Court, please, what your
2 educational background is.
3 A I went to community college for about a
4 year-and-a-half in the
5 County Community College, starting, I believe, in
6 1983. Don't hold me to the dates. I'm not good
7 with dates. I went to
8 received a certificate for my EMT license.
9 Q What is that?
10 A Emergency Medical Technician. I went
11 back to school and received an AS degree in
12 respiratory therapy and back to back received my
13 SA in nursing. I just took my boards and passed
14 last week.
15 Q Where did you grow up, Mr. Schiavo?
16 A Levittown,
17
18 Q Tell us about your family background.
19 Are your parents alive? Do you have brothers and
20 sisters?
21 A I have four older brothers. My mother
22 is deceased. It will be three years in July. My
23 father is still alive living here in
24 Q Did you have a relationship with any of
25 your grandparents?
22
1 A Yes. I did. All my grandparents.
2 Q Do you recall, were any of your
3 grandparents on life support?
4 A Yes. My father's mother.
5 Q How did that come about?
6 A She had a heart attack. Prior to that,
7 she had open heart ten years prior to that. She
8 had a heart attack. She ended up on a ventilator,
9 which was against her wishes. She had a living
10 will in place. A DNR in place.
11 The doctors did intubate her. My family
12 showed up. It was told to the doctor this was not
13 her wishes. Her living will and DNR was shown to
14 the doctor, I believe, and the ventilator was
15 removed.
16 Q Where were you and Terri living when
17 your grandmother died?
18 A Here in
19 Q Did you attend the funeral?
20 A Yes. We did. We flew up.
21 Q Did Terri know or have a relationship
22 with your grandmother?
23 A She had a close relationship with my
24 grandmother.
25 Q 1 Do you recall any conversations-at the
23
1 funeral, the funeral luncheon after that,
2 regarding the issue of your grandmother's life
3 support?
4 A I vaguely remember a conversation that
5 happened, but my brother, Scott, had the
6 conversation. He would know better about the
7 conversation.
8 Q Is there anyone in your family that has
9 a particular reputation for having a good memory?
10 A My brother, Scott. We always tease him
11about having the mind of an elephant.
12 Q Please tell me how you and Terri met?
13 A At Bucks County Community College in one
14 of our classes. I can't remember which class it
15 was.
16 Q Tell us a little about your courtship
17 with Terri.
18 A Terri and I dated approximately about a
19 year. We did the usual things. Family parties.
20 Movies. We went to dinner a lot. We were engaged
21 probably about a year into our relationship. We
22 were engaged for a year before we got married.-
23 Q When did you and Terri marry?
24 A November 10, 1984.
25 Q Where did that occur?
24
1 A In
2 Q Is that a suburb?
3 A Suburb of
4 Q Describe for us Terri's personality.
5 A She was a very outspoken person. She
6 believed in what she believed in. But on the
7 other hand, she had a heart of gold. Somebody
8 that was sweet. Very personable. You would meet
9 her and just be charmed with her. Somebody -- to
10 me, she was everything.
11 Q Before you met -- when you met Terri,
12 what was her weight?
13 A Approximately 155 pounds.
14 Q Before you met Terri, had she been
15 heavier?
16 A Yes. She was in her early childhood.
17 Q Did she lose any weight during the
18 course of your marriage?
19 A Terri lost weight throughout the course
20 of our marriage. Yes. She did.
21 Q I would like to show you, Mr. Schiavo,
22 Petitioner's Exhibit Number One and Number Two
23 marked for identification and ask you if you can
24 identify what those are, please.
25 A This young lady right here is Terri.
25
1 That is her sister, Suzanne. This is when they
2 used to go away to -- I forget. They used to stay
3 at a hotel every year. This is Terri in
4 I believe. Actually on our honeymoon. This is
5 Terri and I. This is a good picture of her. This
6 is Terri right before we left for
7 is Terri right here at her brother's graduation.
8 Q In Petitioner's Exhibit Number One, was
9 that the weight of Terri approximately at the time
10 you married her?
11 A The bottom picture? No.
12 Q The top picture?
13 A The top picture, yes.
14 Q In Petitioner's Exhibit Number Two, is
15 that Terri's approximate weight during your
16 marriage?
17 A Yes.
18 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we move to
19 introduce these photos into evidence.
20 THE COURT: Is there an objection?
21 MS. CAMPBELL: No objection, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: So received.
23 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBITS NUMBERS 1 &
24 2 WERE RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
25 1 Q (By Mr. Felos) Now that the Court has
26
1 had the benefit to see the photographs, I'd like
2 to bring your attention to Petitioner's Exhibit
3 One. If you can explain to the Court what those
4 two pictures are?
5 A The bottom picture here was Terri at a
6 younger age. This is on a family vacation. To
7 the right of her, far right, is her sister,
8 Suzanne. The top picture is, I believe is -- that
a was our honeymoon.
10 Q Okay. Now Petitioner's Exhibit Number
11 Two, can you explain when approximately these
12 pictures were taken, and where, starting with the
13 upper left?
14 A The upper left, that is Terri and I
15 outside of our apartment at
16 know the approximate year of that. Date. To the
17 right of that is a party thrown for us about a
18 week before we left for
19 mother with her back toward you. My brother and
20 sister-in-law.
21 Down on the bottom on the left with the
22 truck leasing, that is her brother's graduation.
23 That is Terri in the white. That is her sister in
24 the black. To the right of that, that is a
25 picture at Disney-World. I believe that is -- I
27
1 don't know the approximate date on that one.
2 The bottom, that is Terri bending down
3 with the blond hair to the right of Santa Claus in
4 the back with the red suit. That is approximately
5 about six or so months prior to her accident.
6 Q Did you notice that Terri was losing
7 weight during the course of the marriage?
a A Yes. I did.
9 Q To your knowledge, while living with
10 Terri, did you know whether or not she ever had an
11 eating disorder such as anorexia or bulimia?
12 A I did not. No. There was speculation
13 made to that, but there was nothing ever proven in
14 court as to that diagnosis.
15 Q Once you were married, tell us the type
16 of things that Terri and you liked to do together.
17 A After we are were married, I did work a
18 lot. I worked a lot of nights. On the days off
19 that I did have, we would go to the movies. Spent
20 a lot of time with her parents. We would go out
21 to dinner a lot. Spend time at home.
22 Q Were you in love with your wife?
23 A I was deeply in love with my wife and I
24 still am.
25 1 Q How long did you live in
27
1 don't know the approximate date on that one.
2 The bottom, that is Terri bending down
3 with the blond hair to the right of Santa Claus in
4 the back with the red suit. That is approximately
5 about six or so months prior to her accident.
6 Q Did you notice that Terri was losing
7 weight during the course of the marriage?
8 A Yes. I did.
9 Q To your knowledge, while living with
10 Terri, did you know whether or not she ever had an
11 eating disorder such as anorexia or bulimia?
12 A I did not. No. There was speculation
13 made to that, but there was nothing ever proven in
14 court as to that diagnosis.
15 Q Once you were married, tell us the type
16 of things that Terri and you liked to do together.
17 A After we are were married, I did work a
18 lot. I worked a lot of nights. On the days off
19 that I did have, we would go to the movies. Spent
20 a lot of time with her parents. We would go out
21 to dinner a lot. Spend time at home.
22 Q Were you in love with your wife?
23 A I was deeply in love with my wife and I
24 still am.
25 Q How long did you live in
28
1 after your marriage in 1984?
2 A I believe -- don't hold me to dates. I
3 believe about a year-and-a-half. I'm sure we left
4 for
5 Q Did you and Terri socialize with any of
6 your family members?
7 A All the time. We went to frequent
8 birthday parties. We had a lot of little kids.
9 We went to adult parties. Kids' parties.
10 Holidays. We spent a lot of time with family.
11 Q Where did your parents and siblings live
12 at that time?
13 A I'm sorry?
14 Q Where did your parents and siblings live
15 at that time?
16 A My parents lived in
17
18
19 Hills. One brother li�ued in
20 brother was not married yet. Kind of lived with
21 my parents and had his own place for a while.
22 Q Was that all in the greater
23 area?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Was Terri particularly close to any of
29
1 your brothers or sister-in-laws?
2 A Terri was very close with my brothers.
3 Especially my sister-in-laws and especially my
4 sister-in-law, Joan. They were best friends.
5 Q At that time, how would you describe
6 your relationship with Terri's parents and family
7 while you were living in
8 A I believe we had a close relationship.
9 She was very close with her brother, Bobby. She
10 was not so close with her sister, Suzanne.
11 Q Did Terri have any close friends in
12 particular in the
13 A She had a very close friend, Sue Cobb.
14 She had other acquaintances. Other friends.
15 Q Why is it that you and Terri decided to
16 move to
17 A We were over the cold. We wanted
18 something new.
19 Q After you and Terri were married, but
20 before you moved to
21 trips here?
22 A Yes. We did. I remember one
23 especially.
24 Q What was particularly special about that
25 trip?
30
1 A That is before we left her grandmother
2 was gravely ill.
3 Q Um-hmm. Did Terri have any concerns
4 about taking the trip to
5 grandmother's condition?
6 A She was very concerned. She did not
7 want to leave her grandmother. She was pretty ill
8 at the time. She was in the hospital in intensive
9 care.
10 Q Do you know why she decided to take the
11 trip?
12 A Her mother told us to go.
13 Q Did the subject of Terri's grandmother
14 -- by the way, did you fly, drive, or take the
15 train?
16 A We took a train.
17 Q Did the subject of Terri's grandmother
18 come up at all during that train trip?
19 A Yes. It did. We were taking the train
20 trip. We are sitting there. Terri was reading a
21 book. She put the book down and looked at me.
22 She says, "I'm kind of concerned about leaving."
23 I told her, "Your mom said to go." She says,
24 "Well, I'm concerned about my grandmother. What
25 if she dies? Who is going to take care of my
31
1 uncle?" She says, "If I ever have to be a burden
2 to anybody, I don't want to live like that."
3 Q You made reference -- did you say
4 anything in response 'Co that?
5 A I told her that -- I told her that she
6 should remember that for me, too.
7 Q Do you know why Terri made a reference
8 to her uncle in connection with her grandmother's
9 illness?
10 A Years prior, her uncle was in a severe
11 car accident. He was depressed because his wife
12 and child were killed in a car accident. They
13 were hit by a train coming home from the mall. He
14 became, as what Terri says, severely depressed.
15 Had a few drinks one night. Went out. On the
16 drive home, he hit a tree. He ended up in a comma
17 for a few weeks.
18 When he came out of his comma, he was
19 pretty much severely handicapped. Had a lot of
20 impediments. Had to live with his mother.
21 Q Did -- regarding Terri's uncle, did you
22 ever meet him?
23 A Yes. I did.
24 Q You observed his condition?
25 A Yes.
32
1 Q Did you observe any infirmities in the
2 uncle?
3 A Her uncle had paralyzed -- I believe his
4 right arm was paralyzed, I believe. He had a
5 severe limp. He used a cane. He had slurred
6 speech. Difficulty. He had to sit for long
7 periods. He could not get up and move around a
8 lot. Difficulty in thought processes, I believe.
0 That he could not process his thoughts quick
10 enough with his answers.
11 Q Again, why was Terri concerned about her
12 uncle because of her grandmother?
13 A Because he lived with the grandmother
14 and she basically helped take care of him.
15 Q After -- by the way, after the
16 conversation on the train, what happened to
17 Terri's grandmother?
18 A She died while we were here in
19 Q Michael, did you have any other
20 conversations at all with Terri about removal of
21 life support?
22 A Yes. I did.
23 Q Tell us about those, please.
24 A Terri and I would be home. We would be
25 1 watching TV. You know, a documentary would come
33
1 on. It would depict you know adults, children
2 that are being sustained and kept alive by parents
3 at home. People that had to be on ventilators.
4 People getting tube feedings. Medications
5 throughout. IVs.
6 She made the comment to me that she
7 would never want to be like that. Don't ever keep
8 her alive on anything artificial. She did not
9 want to live like that. I looked at her and I
10 said do the same for me.
11 Q Do you recall how many conversations
12 like that you had with Terri in response to a TV
13 program or documentary?
14 A It was two, two or three times.
15 Q When you moved to
16 first moved to
17 A We lived in the Schindler's condominium.
18 Q How long did you live there?
19 A Approximately a year.
20 Q Did you pay rent?
21 A We paid rent when we could. The
22 Schindlers were gracious enough to let us slide
23 when we had to. Terri was not working at the
24 time.
25 Q Okay. Then after living in Mr. and Mrs.
34
1 Schindler's condo, where did you live?
2 A We moved to
6 Q Tell us a little bit about the logistics
7 of your life down here in terms of schedule. You
8 said Terri did not work initially. Did she
9 eventually find employment?
10 A Terri did not work initially. I started
11 work at Olga's Kitchen as a manager. Terri did
12 not work for a while. About four months. She
13 previously worked at Prudential up north, and she
14 went to Prudential here and they hired her on as a
15 transfer. That is where she stayed.
16 Q Was that Prudential Securities?
17 Prudential Insurance?
18 A Prudential Insurance.
19 Q Did Terri work days or nights?
20 A Days.
21 Q What were your hours?
22 A My hours usually were 4:00 to close.
23 3:00 to close.
24 Q Closing is?
25 A Sometimes midnight. Sometimes 11:00.
35
1 Sometimes I was home at 1:00 in the morning.
2 Q How did Terri feel about you working all
3 those nights?
4 A She was not particularly thrilled with
5 , it, but she knew I had to do that.
6 Q Did the two of you -- did Terri have any
7 particularly close friends at Prudential?
8 A She had acquaintances She had
9 friends. I would not say they were close.
10 Q Did the two of you have any close mutual
11 friends here in
12 A We did not have mutual friends. We had
13 acquaintances we both knew. We did not have any
14 close mutual friends.
15 Q Did Terri's parents move to
16 some time?
17 A I believe it was a year later after
18 Terri and I moved here.
19 Q After the Schindlers moved to
20 but before Terri's medical accident, how would you
21 describe the relationship you and Terri had with
22 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?
23 A I'm sorry. Repeat that question.
24 Q Once the Schindlers moved to
25 how would you de-scribe the relationship you and
36
1 Terri had with her parents down here? Did you see
2 each other often?
3 A Terri saw the Schindlers probably more
4 than I did. In my own opinion, I thought we were
5 pretty close.
6 Q Tell me a little bit about -- tell us a
7 little about Terri's religious practice from the
8 time you knew her. Well, do you know what faith
9 Terri was brought up?
10 A Terri was brought up Catholic.
11 Q During the time that you knew Terri or
12 let's say from the time you were married, how
13 often would Terri go to mass?
14 A I'm sorry. Repeat that for me, George.
15 Q How often would Terri go to mass?
16 A Not very often. Once every few months.
17 Q Did you go with her?
18 A Yes. I did.
19 Q Every time?
20 A Yes. I did.
21 Q Did Terri ever receive communion when
22 she attended mass?
23 A No. She did not.
24 Q Did Terri ever participate in the
25 sacrament of confession?
37
1 A No. She did not.
2 Q Did you and Terri ever consider having a
3 family?
4 A Yes. We did.
5 Q What was -- what were your feelings
6 about that and Terri's feelings?
7 A Terri adored children. She wanted
8 children desparately [sic], as I did.
9 Q Was there a time when the two of you
10 actually decided to start a family?
11 A Yes. It was -- we decided to wait about
12 five years before we really wanted to start a
13 family. It was probably the beginning of 1989 we
14 started, I believe.
15 Q Did Terri ever became pregnant?
16 A No. She did not.
17 Q What was the difficulty?
18 A Terri was not receiving her period.
19 Q Did you or Terri ever seek medical
20 advice or treatment regarding your desire to have
21 children?
22 A Terri did. Yes. She was seeing a
23 family physician and a gynecologist.
24 Q Who was that?
25 A The gynecologist was Dr. Egel.
38
1 Q Did Dr. Egel --
2 A Egel. E-g-e-l.
3 Q What time period was Terri consulting
4 with Dr. Egel in an effort to become pregnant?
5 A I believe starting in the beginning of
6 1989.
7 Q How long did her -- how long did she go
8 to Dr. Egel?
9 A For a period of about a year.
10 Q Michael, tell me what occurred on
11 February 25, 1990.
12 A I got home late from work that night. I
13 came in the house. Terri woke up. She heard me.
14 I gave her a kiss good night. She gave me a kiss
15 good night. A few hours later, I was getting out
16 of bed for some reason and I heard this thud. So
17 I ran out into the hall and I found Terri on the
18 floor. I knelt down next to her and I turned her
19 over because she sort of fell on her face. On her
20 stomach and face.
21 I turned her over going, "Terri, Terri.
22 You okay?" She kind of had this gurgling noise.
23 I laid her down and ran over and called 911. I
24 was hysterical. I called 911. I called her
25 brother, who lived in the same complex as we did.
39
1 I ran back to Terri. She was not moving. I held
2 her in my arms until her brother got there. I
3 rocked her. I didn't know what to do. I was
4 hysterical. It was a horrible moment.
5 Q Do you know how long it was before the
6 paramedics came?
7 A Had to be a good six minutes or so.
8 Q What happened when the paramedics came?
9 A I moved away. Her brother was sitting
10 in the kitchen around the corner. I moved away
11 and they started working on Terri. They put the
12 leads on. I heard them say she is flat line.
13 Start CPR. I am standing there going what is
14 happening here? Why is this happening? Why isn't
15 her heart beating? I was just a mess. I was
16 hysterical.
17 Q Where did the paramedics take her?
18 A To Humana Northside,
19 Q Did you ride with the paramedics?
20 A Yes. I did.
21 Q What is Terri's condition as a result of
22 the incident that occurred on February 25, 1990?
23 A She's in a chronic vegetative state
24 anoxic encephalopathy due to cardiac arrest.
25 Q For those of us who did not go to school
40
1 in medicine --
2 A Lack of oxygen because her heart was not
3 pumping to her brain.
4 Q Can Terri run?
5 A No.
6 Q Can Terri walk?
7 A No.
8 Q Can Terri stand on her own?
9 A No. She can't.
10 Q Sit on her own?
11 A No. She can't.
12 Q Can Terri turn over?
13 A No. She can't.
14 Q Does she talk?
15 A No.
16 Q Can she eat?
17 A No.
18 Q Can she drink?
19 A No. She can't.
20 Q Can she swallow?
21 A No.
22 Q Can she go the bathroom?
23 A No.
24 Q Can she brush her teeth?
25 A No.
41
1 Q Can Terri clip her fingernails?
2 A No.
3 Q Comb her hair?
4 A No.
5 Q Can Terri dress herself?
6 A No. She cannot.
7 Q How are all those activities done for
8 Terri?
9 A I have her in a nursing home. The
10 facility employees do all that for her. She has
11 to be intubated by one person. She wears a diaper
12 which has to be cleaned, and you know, whether she
13 has a EM, they have to change the diaper. Clean
14 her. She has her period, which is at times
15 extremely heavy and messy. They have to clean
16 her. They have to do her hair. Her teeth. They
17 have to do total care for Terri.
18 She can't turn. They have to come in
19 every two hours and turn her. They have to place
20 her in a chair. They have to put the side rails
21 up on the chair to hold her in place.
22 Q Is there a neck support on the chair?
23 A Concave headrest more of. Her head fits
24 into the support.
25 1 Q In addition to the total care Terri has
42
1 received, I would like you to tell the Court some
2 of the additional medical problems Terri has had.
3 A Terri has had numerous, numerous urinary
4 tract infections. She has had her left little toe
5 removed due to osteomyelitis.
6 Q What is that?
7 A Bone infection that was caused by a
8 pressure sore.
9 Q Has Terri ever had to be hospitalized
10 because of the urinary tract infections?
11 A Yes, she has. Numerous amounts of time
12 for that.
13 Q For the removal of her toe?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Go on.
16 A She has kidney stones. She had her
17 gallbladder removed.
18 Q Did that require hospitalization?
19 A Yes. It did.
20 Q She had vaginitis. She had pelvic
21 inflammatory disease. She had I believe two D and
22 Cs.
23 Q Did the pelvic inflammatory disease, or
24 D and Cs, require hospitalization?
25 1 A Twenty-four hour admits.
43
1 Q Um-hmm.
2 A She has had respiratory problems. She
3 had dehydration.
4 Q What respiratory problems?
5 A Upper congestion. She can't control her
6 gag. When she fills up, she has to be constantly
7 suctioned down her nose or in the back of her
8 throat. She was put on some aerosol medications
9 that helped dry and relieve the congestion. She
10 has to be watched at those points because she
11 can't control her gag and she will choke.
12 Q Has Terri been hospitalized due to
13 respiratory infections?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Go on, please.
16 A I lost my train of thought.
17 Q Did Terri ever suffer seizures?
18 A Yes. She's suffered seizures. She
19 makes constant muscle twitching. She has severe
20 contractures of the hands, the elbows, the knees,
21 the feet. Her foot drop is to the point where --
22 Q What is a foot drop?
23 A Foot drop is where your foot drops and
24 sticks into a certain spot. Her feet are
25 basically lower than her leg, when she sticks it
44
1 out. She's had a couple cysts removed off her
2 neck. Numerous amounts of things. I'm trying to
3 think. She has a food tube that has been infected
4 a few times that she had to be taken to the doctor
5 to remove.
6 Q Gastronomy tube?
7 A Yes. Infection. Inflammation around
8 that. Due to contractures in elbows, now the skin
9 in between is starting to break down. She's had,
10 she has constant diarrhea which leads to
11 dehydration which leads to --
12 Q Has she ever been hospitalized [sic] for
13 dehydration or diarrhea?
14 A She has in the past. This previous
15 dehydration she stayed in the nursing home.
16 Q Michael, you have spent more time with
17 Terri and have seen Terri more often than anyone
18 since her incident. Have you ever seen any
19 voluntary or volitional response on her part in
20 all these years?
21 A I have not.
22 Q Does Terri, does Terri emit any noises?
23 Does her face move? Her head?
24 A Terri will moan, but it's not to
25 anything. We could -- I could be sitting next to
45
1 her and she will start to moan. Her eyes will
2 blink. Her head will kind of twitch. It will
3 kind of move itself. She also has -- she goes
4 into this spasm where she will hyperflex her neck
5 and will make these noises.
6 She will move her, I shouldn't say --
7 her arms move to where it looks like it is
8 tightening up and she is almost sitting in like a
9 praying mantis position. I have never ever seen
10 Terri have any voluntary movement or follow
11 through with any commands.
12 Q Does Terri have tears at times?
13 A I have noticed she had a tear or two,
14 but to me it was after she would kind of take a
15 big deep breath. Almost looks like a yawn, and
16 her eyes would tear.
17 Q Have you ever seen Terri laugh or smile?
18 A I have not seen Terri laugh or smile.
19 She makes a moaning noise and her mouth opens up
20 kind of, but I would not call that a smile.
21 Q Do you know of any treatment method or
22 drug or thing that can be done which will improve
23 Terri's condition?
24 A No. I don't.
25 Q Has any doctor informed you there is any
46
1 treatment method, drug, or thing that can be done
2 to improve Terri's condition?
3 A No.
4 Q What steps, if any, did you take in
5 order to try to improve Terri's condition?
6 A When this first happened I, you know,
7 she was at Bayfront for rehab. And we found this
8 doctor in
9 surgeries on people that are in vegetative
10 states. He was placing a stimulator inside their
11 brain in hopes that that would stimulate the
12 dormant cells that were not actually dead yet. I
13 took her there.
14 The doctor was Hoshibushi (phonetic).
15 He was doing experimental surgery. The protocol
16 was one month. There was no improvement from
17 that. I brought Terri back. I hired a private
18 aide.
19 Q Let me backtrack. When was it that you
20 brought Terri to
21 A I believe 1 91. ' 92.
22 Q That was before the medical malpractice
23 award?
24 A Yes. It was.
25 Q How did you come by the funds in order
47
1 to send Terri to
2 A We were on the news. I sold hot dogs on
3 St. Pete Beach. Sold pretzels. The association
4 where we lived got involved with us. Had a
5 Valentine's dance for her. They helped. We
6 raised some money to get her out there.
7 Q Did you go to
8 A Yes. I did.
9 Q You mentioned that stimulators were put
10 into Terri. Where were they put into Terri?
11 A Into her brain. Right on top of the
12 gray matter, which is the top part of your brain.
13 Q How were they -- were these electric
14 stimulators?
15 A It looked like your hand and had wires
16 that came out at a certain point of your brain.
17 It was electrodes in the back. I don't want to
18 say electrodes. I don't know what it was called.
19 Placed here that the wires ran off of. Ran down
20 the side of her neck and would go into her chest.
21 It looked like a pacemaker. They turn off and on
22 at that point.
23 Q An external device?
24 A Right.
25 1 Q You mentioned when you came back you
48
1 hired a private aide?
2 A Yes. I did.
3 Q Tell me why you did that.
4 A To continue to stimulate Terri. I
5 wanted to make sure she was dressed in everday [sic]
6 clothes. I had Diane take her to museums. I had
7 Diane make sure when I was not there that she was
8 taken her for walks. I had Diane take her to
9 museums. To beauty makeovers. I made Terri's
10 hair done the way she did it. Makeup on.
11 Earrings. Necklaces.
12 Q Were any of these efforts successful,
13 Mike?
14 A No. They were not.
15 Q Have you ever received any opinion from
16 any doctor or physician to the effect that Terri
17 has any mental ability?
18 A No. I have not.
19 Q Any opinion from any doctor or physician
20 that she has any cognitive skill or cognitive
21 interaction with her environment?
22 A No. I have not,
23 Q I would like to outline with you Terri's
24 care after the accident. You mentioned that she
25 went to Humana Northside?
49
1 A Yes. She did.
2 Q How long was she in Humana Northside?
3 A Approximately two-and-a-half months.
4 Q Was she in the ICU?
5 A Yes. She was. I spent the first
6 sixteen days and nights there. Never left her.
7 Q Where did you sleep?
8 A Sometimes right next to her. Sometimes,
9 most of the times, out in the waiting room on the
10 chairs.
11 Q After those first sixteen days, did
12 you -- how often did you see Terri at Humana
13 Northside?
14 A I came every day.
15 Q Where did Terri go after Humana
16 Northside?
17 A She went to
18 Q What type of facility is that?
19 A Skilled nursing.
20 Q How long did you see Terri at College
21 Harbor?
22 A I saw Terri every day.
23 Q How much time did you spend?
24 A I went in the morning. Left in the
25 evening. Spent 8, 10, 12 hours a day.
50
1 Q After College Harbor, where did Terri
2 go?
3 A She went to Bayfront --
4 Q Um-hmm.
5 A --
6 Dr. Baras.
7 Q What was the purpose of Bayfront?
8 A She had 90 days of skilled rehab.
9 Q Was there any problem in getting the
10 insurance money for Bayfront?
11 A Yes. There was. I had to actually
12 fight the insurance company for that.
13 Q What type of rehabilitation was given to
14 Terri at Bayfront?
15 A Aggressive rehabilitation. They also
16 got to take the trach out. Remove the trach.
17 Q When you say rehabilitation, is that
18 physical therapy?
19 A Physical, occupational. Special
20 therapists worked with her.
21 Q Other than removing the trach, was
22 there any improvement in Terri's condition?
23 A No. There was not.
24 Q How often did you see Terri at Bayfront?
25 A I was there every day.
51
1 Q Where did Terri go after Bayfront?
2 A She went to my home.
3 Q How long was Terri at home?
4 A Approximately four months, I believe.
5 Q Who took care of her at your home?
6 A I did 98 percent of it. My
7 mother-in-law did help. My father-in-law
8 basically did not do much at all.
9 Q Were your in-laws living with you at
10 that time?
11 A Yes. They were.
12 Q Why is it you said she was home for
13 about four months? Why didn't she stay home
14 longer than that?
15 A Because Terri needs total care. It is a
16 lot of work. We could not afford nurses. I could
17 not do it by myself. My mother-in-law was afraid
18 to have her there. My father-in-law was concerned
19 about that.
20 Q Did your mother-in-law express why she
21 was afraid?
22 A In case something happened to Terri that
23 she didn't know how to do.
24 Q After Terri was at home, where did she
25 go?
52
1 A She went back to
2 Q How long was she there?
3 A She was there for a couple of weeks.
4 Q How often did you see her at College
5 Harbor?
6 A Every day.
7 Q And from
8 A She went to
9 Q Where were you in
10 experimental treatment?
11 A We went to the
12 at
13 Q How long were you there?
14 A At the hospital, itself, we were there
15 about a week. For the rehab portion, we were
16 there about a month. A little over a month and a
17 week.
18 Q How often did you see Terri in the
19 hospital in the rehab in
20 A At the hospital, I stayed in her room 24
21 hours a day. I slept in a cot next to her. At
22 the rehab center, I was there every day with her.
23 Morning, noon, and night.
24 Q When you came home from
25 where did Terri go?
53
1 A She came home with us, with me, for a
2 couple of weeks.
3 Q Who took care of her at home?
4 A I did, plus we were able to, since we
5 had the money from the fund raisers, we were able
6 to afford a couple of nurses to come in and help
7 us.
8 Q After Terri was at home a short time,
9 after that where did she go?
10 A
11 Q What type of institution is Mediplex
12 (phonetic) ?
13 A Mediplex deals mainly with brain
14 injury, strokes, anything that has to do with the
15 brain.
16 Q How long was Terri at Mediplex in
17
18 A Approximately three months.
19 Q Why did Terri leave Mediplex?
20 A Because the doctors informed us there
21 was nothing more they can do for Terri and we had
22 to find a facility to put her in or take her home.
23 Q How often did you see Terri at Mediplex
24 in
25 1 A Every day.
54
1 Q Where did Terri go after Mediplex?
2 A Sabal Palms.
3 Q Where is that located?
4 A In
5 Q At Sabal Palms, did you have any
6 conflicts or disputes with the nursing home
7 regarding Terri's care?
8 A Yes. I did. I had many conflicts and
9 disputes. They had a lot of agency nurses on the
10 floor and they did not have enough staff. Terri
11 was getting the wrong medications. Terri was
12 laying in her dirty diaper for hours and hours on
13 end. Many grievances. She was not getting her
14 shower. Her teeth were not getting done. Her
15 medication to her mouth was not put on. When she
16 had the osteomyelitis, it was not cleaned properly
17 after the hospitalization.
18 They did not have enough CNAs on the
19 floor to care for the people and the amount of
20 care that was needed for certain people.
21 Q What did you do to make sure that those
22 deficiencies did not affect Terri's care?
23 A I went through the grievance policy that
24 they give to the family members when there is a
25 problem.
55
1 Q What were those?
2 A It was a form you filled out. The
3 grievance. You handed it in. The Director of
4 Nurses would read them and supposedly they would
5 fix them. And they would write you a little
6 letter back, and most of the time nothing was done
7 because they did not have enough staff to handle
8 the problems.
9 Q Were you a particularly popular person
10 with the nursing home administration?
11 A No. I was not.
12 Q At some point, did the nursing home take
13 some sort of legal action against you?
14 A Yes. They did.
15 Q Tell us about that, please.
16 A They basically tried to have me
17 restrained from the nursing home.
18 Q What was -- how did that play out,
19 Mr. Schiavo?
20 A It kind of coincided with the
21 Schindler's petition.
22 Q Was the nursing home successful?
23 A They were not.
24 Q Did the court appoint a guardian ad
25 litem to investigate the nursing home charges?
56
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did the guardian ad litem issue a
3 report?
4 A Yes. He did.
5 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we, at the
6 status conference last week, agreed to take
7 judicial notice of the prior matters in the file,
8 but for convenience, I would like to introduce
9 into evidence Petitioner's Exhibit Number Three
10 which are certain pleadings and documents from
11 prior proceedings.
12 THE COURT: Is there an objection?
13 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Thank you. They will be
15 received as Petitioner's Number Three.
16 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 3 WAS
17 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
18 Q (By Mr. Felos) Mr. Schiavo, I would
19 like you to read a paragraph from the report of
20 John Pacaric, (phonetic). Report of the guardian
21 ad litem. This is the paragraph that starts on
22 the bottom of Page 2 of the report and ends on top
23 of Page 3.
24 A The guardian of the person, Michael
25 Schiavo, is reported by everyone interviewed to be
57
1 attentive to the pleas of his wife. He is at the
2 nursing home on almost a daily basis. He is
3 constantly reviewing the ward's chart at the
4 nursing home and not hesitant to point out errors
5 and omissions in the care of his wife. There are
6 reported incidents of the guardian yelling and
7 screaming in the hallways, nurses in tears, and
8 intimidation of the staff by Mr. Schiavo.
9 Although I have concluded Mr. Schiavo is
10 a nursing home administrator's nightmare, I
11 believe that the ward gets care and attention from
12 the staff at Sabal Palms as a result of Mr.
13 Schiavo's advocacy and defending on her behalf. A
14 family member of another resident at Sabal Palms
15 reports that his relative receives less care as a
16 result of the staff spending so much time with
17 Mrs. Schiavo.
18 Q How often did you see Terri at Sabal
19 Palms?
20 A Every day at Sabal Palms.
21 Q How long was she there?
22 A Approximately two years, I want to say.
23 Q How long would you see her?
24 A Um, 8, 10 hours a day.
25 Q Did you have a dispute with Mr. and Mrs.
58
1 Schindler at Sabal Palms Nursing Home in February
2 of 1993?
3 A Yes. I did.
4 Q Describe, please, what happened at Sabal
5 Palms on February 14, 1993.
6 A February 14th I was in Theresa's room.
7 I had the door closed. I was studying for some
8 homework I had. The Schindlers came into the room
9 and they went over and said hello to Theresa. The
10 first words out of my father-in-law's mouth was
11 how much money he was going to get. I was, what
12 do you mean? Well, you owe me money.
13 I said to him to stop everything. I
14 said I did not receive any money. I gave it all
15 to Terri. He then, in turn, pointed at Terri and
16 said how much money is she going to give me. I
17 said to him you need to talk to the guardian of
18 the property. I'm not that person. With that, he
19 call me a few choice words, went out and slammed
20 the door.
21 With those words, I followed him and my
22 mother-in-law stepped in the way. She started.
23 saying this is my daughter, our daughter, and we
24 deserve some of that money.
25 Q Mr. Schiavo, do you know what money
59
1 Mr. Schindler was talking about?
2 A He was talking about the award that I
3 received.
4 Q Approximately how much did you receive
5 net in your loss of consortium award?
6 A Approximately 300,000.
7 Q Was Mr. Schindler -- let me backtrack.
8 When did that case come to trial?
9 A The malpractice?
10 Q Yes.
11 A Um.
12 Q Does November '92 sound right to you?
13 A Yes.
14 Q How much in funds did Terri receive net?
15 A I think she netted 700,000.
16 Q Who was sued?
17 A The doctors were. Doctor Egel and
18 Power.
19 Q The gynecologist Terri was seeing to
20 become pregnant?
21 A Right. And the family doctor.
22 Q Was Mr. Schindler aware of the
23 malpractice proceeding?
24 A Yes.
25 Q He attended the trial?
60
1 A Yes.
2 Q Do you know whether or not he was there
3 the day the verdict was entered?
4 A Yes. He was there with pencil and
5 paper. He wrote the verdict amounts down to the
6 point that he was so upset that he thought the
7 judge did not calculate right. He could not go to
8 work the next day.
9 Q Did Mr. Schindler ever tell you why he
10 thought he was entitled to a portion of your loss
11 of consortium award?
12 A Because it was his daughter and he
13 deserved it.
14 Q Did you ever say to Mr. and Mrs.
15 Schindler that you would split with them your loss
16 of consortium award or pay them any portion of it?
17 A No. I did not.
18 Q I think you testified that you told
19 Mr. Schindler that you gave your money away?
20 A Yes. I did.
21 Q Was that a correct statement?
22 A No. It was not.
23 Q Why did you say this?
24 A Just basically to shut him up because he
25 was screaming.
61
1 Q At that time, in that dispute with
2 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler that day, was there any
3 discussion of lawsuits or lawyers?
4 A Yes. I got through. My mother-in-law
5 went outside. He was standing there. His fists
6 were clenched. He got in my face. Said he's
7 coming down on me. Going to get on this
8 guardianship and he was going to get a lawyer.
9 Q At any time have you told Mr. or Mrs.
10 Schindler that they could not come to the nursing
11 home or visit Terri?
12 A No. I did not.
13 Q Did you ever tell the nursing home not
14 to give the Schindlers information on Terri's
15 medical condition?
16 A At one point, yes.
17 Q Why did you do that?
18 A When Terri was in the hospital for, I
19 believe a urinary tract -- no. I forget what she
20 was in the hospital for. It was for some
21 hospitalization. And the Schindlers never showed
22 up or even called about her care.
23 Q Did you change your position about
24 giving the Schindlers access to medical
25 information?
62
1 A Yes. I did.
2 Q Looking back on it, was that a moment
3 that you are proud of?
4 A No. I was not. It was done. It was
5 emotions running. I was angry.
6 Q Back then in 1993, that was still three
7 years after Terri's incident, how were you doing
8 emotionally? How were you taking it?
9 A I'm sorry. Repeat that, George.
10 Q Back in 1993, how well were you coping
11 emotionally with what happened to Terri? How were
12 you doing?
13 A I don't know how I was doing it. I was
14 an emotional wreck. I was seeing a
15 psychiatrist. A psychologist, I should say. I
16 had a lot of unanswered questions of why.
17 Q Did you ever tell your in-laws that
18 Terri would be better off dead than coming out of
19 her coma?
20 A No. I did not, sir.
21 Q Did you ever have a conversation or make
22 a statement about her coming out of the coma?
23 A I made a mention to Mr. Schindler one
24 day out in the hall. I said, this was after
25 probably four or five years of Terri being in this
63
1 condition, I said to him maybe it was in Terri's
2 best interests. It was not feasible to come out
3 and find out you are going to be a quadraplegic
4 and you can't walk anymore.
5 Q On what basis did you believe she would
6 be a quadraplegic?
7 A The doctors have told me that in the
8 past.
9 Q How has her (sic) relationship been with
10 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler since the February '93
11 incident?
12 A How has my relationship been?
13 Q Yes.
14 A I have not spoken to them since, except
15 through trials or --
16 Q Have they spoken to you?
17 A No. They have not. I did, on one
18 occasion when Terri had her gallbladder removed, I
19 did on one occasion when the mother called the
20 nursing home, I tried to talk to her and she
21 refused to talk to me.
22 Q Did Mr. Schindler ever follow up on his
23 threat to get a lawyer?
24 A Yes. He did.
25 Q I believe a petition was filed in July
64
1 of 1993. Later that year. What were you sued
2 for, Mr. Schiavo? What was the Schindlers asking
3 the Court to do?
4 A That I was not taking care of Terri.
5 was seeing other people. And that I was in
6 conflict due to her money that if Terri died I
7 would inherit it.
8 Q Mr. Schiavo, since Terri's incident, did
9 you have any intimate relations with another
10 woman?
11 A Yes. I did.
12 Q when did that occur?
13 A Approximately five years after the
14 incident. I don't know the exact dates.
15 Q How long did that relationship last?
16 A Approximately eight months.
17 Q Did Mr. and Mrs. Schindler know about
18 it?
19 A Yes. They did. Mr. Schindler wanted me
20 to do it. He condoned it, along with Mrs.
21 Schindler. They met the person I was seeing.
22 Q Do you currently have an intimate
23 relationship with a woman?
24 A Yes. I do.
25 1 Q How long have you known her?
65
1 Five-and-a-half years.
2 Q Would you like to have a family
3 sometime?
4 A Very much so.
5 Q Because you're involved, because you
6 I have a relationship with someone else, does that
7 I mean you don't love Terri?
8 A I love Terri very deeply. I always
9 will.
10 Q Michael, does your petition have
11 anything to do with Terri's money at all?
12 A No. It does not.
13 Q How was the lawsuit the Schindler's
14 brought against you disposed of?
15 A They dismissed their case with prejudice
16 as long as I would not seek attorney's fees.
17 Q At some point in time, did you move
18 Terri from
19 A Yes. I did.
20 Q Where did Terri move to?
21 A
22 Q Is that where she is currently staying?
23 A Yes. It is.
24 Q When did that occur?
25 A 1996, 1 believe.
66
1 Q How often did you -- how often do you
2 see Terri at
3 A Currently?
4 Q Yes.
5 A Once or twice a week.
6 Q What do you do? How long do you stay?
7 What do you do when you see Terri?
8 A An hour-and-a-half, two hours. I
9 usually get there when Olga is bringing her out of
10 the shower. Help lift her. Get her dressed.
11 Usually blow dry her hair. Dry her hands off.
12 Put her pads in her hands. Usually check over her
13 skin. Make sure she does not have any tears or
14 whatever.
15 Q Do you still buy Terri's clothes for
16 her?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you still help dress Terri?
19 A Yes. Make sure she has her haircut
20 appointment. Do her wash. Make sure all her
21 needs are met.
22 Q By the way, Mr. Schiavo, all the times
23 that Terri has been hospitalized, how many times
24 would you say Terri has been hospitalized?
25 A Hospitalized?
67
1 Q For the various medical problems you
2 testified to before.
3 A Twenty times.
4 Q Has she ever been in the hospital one
5 day when you were not there?
6 A No. She has not.
7 Q How many times has Terri gone to the
8 doctor?
9 A Over a hundred, 130.
10 Q What is the logistics, mechanism of
11 getting Terri to the doctor?
12 A Depending on what the problem is, prior
13 we used to have to put her in SunStar ambulance.
14 Now she basically is transported by wheelchair
15 transport.
16 Q In those hundred or so doctor visits,
17 has there ever been a doctor visit for Terri where
18 you have not been there with her?
19 A No. There has not. I was there for
20 every one of them.
21 Q Was there a point in Terri's care where
22 you came to the decision that she should not be
23 medically treated for an infection?
24 A Yes. There was.
25 Q When did that occur?
68
1 A I believe it was in '94. ' 93, ' 94.
2 Q When did -- tell me how that came about?
3 A I took Terri to the doctors for a
4 bladder infection. The doctor recommended that we
5 don't treat the infection and that Terri should
6 have a "Do Not Resuscitate" order in place.
7 Q How did you feel about that when you
8 heard that?
9 A I was emotional, but I felt it was what
10 Terri would want.
11 Q Did you bring up the subject of the DNR
12 order, not treating the infection, first?
13 A No. The doctor did.
14 Q Did you make a decision to implement,
15 institute, a Do Not Resuscitate order and Do Not
16 Treat The Infection?
17 A Yes. I did.
1 Q What would have been the medical
19 consequences of not treating that infection?
20 A Terri -- the infection would basically
21 turn into a septic-type infection throughout her
22 body. It would naturally shut down her organs.
23 A painless process.
24 Q Was that decision implemented?
25 A Yes. It was.
69
1 Q Did the nursing home react to it at all?
2 A Yes. They did. They started getting
3 all upset. Telling me it was against the law to
4 do something like that.
5 Q How did -- did Mr. and Mrs. Schindler do
6 anything in response to your decision not to treat
7 the infection?
8 A They amended their original petition
9 and brought the new amended petition against me
10 that I was not treating the infection.
11 Q Didn't they accuse you of abusing Terri
12 by not treating the infection?
13 A Yes. They did.
14 Q Did you back off of the decision at
15 that time?
16 A Yes. I did. I had the nursing home, I
17 had the petition, and my emotions were running.
18 So I backed way off.
19 Q Back then in, I believe it was March of
20 1994, the Schindler's amended their petition in
21 regarding the decision not to treat. At that
22 time, why didn't you pursue removal of the feeding
23 tube?
24 A Because at that time my emotions were
25 1 running. I couldn't -- I was ready to do the
70
1 natural thing. I was not ready to pull the
2 feeding tube at that time.
3 Q Even though you knew Terri wanted it?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Why were you not able?
6 A It was -- I was not ready for that yet.
7 Q The Schindlers dismissed their petition
8 with prejudice in September of 1995 and this
9 petition was filed in 19 -- your current petition
10 to remove artificial life support was filed in May
11 of 1988 (sic) Why did you wait two-and-a-half
12 years to file the petition?
13 A I did not wait. I met you in the
14 beginning of 1996, I believe. I was talking to
15 another attorney.
16 Q Well, okay. I have to caution you not
17 to testify as to any communication you might have
18 with your attorney because of attorney/client
19 privilege. Let me ask it this way. Did you seek
20 to put into motion your decision to remove the
21 feeding tube before the petition was filed in May
22 of 1988 (sic) ?
23 THE COURT: You keep saying '88.
24 MR. FELOS: ' 98. Thank you,
25 Your Honor.
71
1 Q (By Mr. Felos) When did you make the
2 decision and start putting it in motion?
3 A In 1995. End of 1995.
4 Q Mr. Schiavo, I would like to show you
5 Petitioner's Exhibit Number Four for
6 identification and ask you if you can identify
7 what those are.
8 A This is an affidavit from Dr. Gambone.
9 I believe it explains Terri's condition.
10 Q Affidavit of Dr. Gambone and affidavit
11 of --
12 A I'm sorry. James Barnhill.
13 Q And?
14 A Dr. Kamp.
15 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I move to
16 introduce these into evidence as Petitioner's
17 Exhibit Number Four.
18 THE COURT: Is there an objection?
19 MS. CAMPBELL: No objection.
20 THE COURT: Thank you. They will be so
21 received.
22 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 4 WAS
23 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
24 Q (By Mr. Felos) Mr. Schiavo, you
25 mentioned that your mother passed away. When did
72
1 that occur?
2 A 1997. July.
3 Q Did that experience at all affect your
4 decision to bring this petition?
5 A My mother gave me a gift when she was
6 dying. We stopped her feeding because that is
7 what she wanted, and her medications. She gave me
8 that gift that it was okay to die.
9 Q Mr. Schiavo, why have you filed this
10 petition? Why are you asking the Court for
11 permission to remove Terri's feeding tube?
12 A Because that is what Terri wanted, and
13 its my responsibility because I love her so much
14 to follow out what she wanted.
15 MR. FELOS: Thank you. No further
16 questions.
17 THE COURT: Why don't we take a short
18 break. Five minutes ought to be enough to stretch
19 and use the facilities and get back.
20 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in
21 recess.
22 (THEREUPON, A RECESS WAS HAD FROM 10:40 -
23 10:50 A.M.)
24 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, may I step out
25 and find co-counsel?
73
1 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
2 THE BAILIFF: Circuit court is back in
3 session.
4 THE COURT: Thank you.
5 MR. FELOS: May we approach a moment?
6 (THEREUPON, THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE
7 HAD AT THE BENCH.)
8 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, my client
9 requests that the proceedings not be recorded by
10 the media, and he believes that it would impair
11 the privacy rights of the ward and we make that
12 request.
13 THE COURT: What is the legal basis for
14 that? Is there any authority for keeping the
15 media out of here?
16 MR. FELOS: I have not researched the
17 issue, Your Honor. I have no case to present.
18 THE COURT: The bases are juvenile
19 proceedings are private and they cannot be in
20 those, but they can be outside the court. Its
21 interesting they can take -
22 MR. FELOS: There is some precedent in
23 the guardianship statute. There is a provision
24 for the court to be closed in incompetency
25 proceedings.
74
1 THE COURT: Incompetency proceedings.
2 And I have so ruled the media had no right to
3 those files or proceedings. This is different.
4 Do you know of any authority?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: I don't know of any.
6 While I'd like to see it agreed to, I don't know
7 of any legal authority that we could, because I
8 don't think there is anything under Chapter 119.
9 THE COURT: Absent authority, I don't
10 know how I can ask them to leave. If you would
11 like to take an additional recess and see if you
12 can prevail upon them, I'm willing to do that, but
13 I don't know of any legal authority for them to
14 not be here.
15 MR. FELOS: Then I say let's proceed, if
16 that is the ruling of the Court.
17 THE COURT: Thank you.
18 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
20 Q Good morning, Mr. Schiavo. As you
21 recall, I am Pam Campbell. I represent Mr. and
22 Mrs. Schindler.
23 A Good morning.
24 Q The relationship that you currently
25 have, the lady's name, is it Jody Sintonsay
75
1 (phonetic) ?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Could you describe that relationship for
4 me?
5 A We are boyfriend/girlfriend. We live
6 together.
7 Q Would you consider her your fiancee?
8 A I would consider her -- yes. Yes.
9 Q Has she ever been so noticed as anything
10 in writing in the newspaper as your fiancee?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You and she own a house together; is
13 that correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Can you recall going on the train tip
16 incident that you referred to with Mr. Felos, can
17 can you recall the time frame when you and Terri
18 were coming on the train to
19 A What do you mean the time frame?
20 Q When was that?
21 A I believe it was in '86. -
22 1986?
23 A Yeah. '86. I'm not good with dates and
24 times, like I told you before.
25 Q Wasn't it in October of 1985?
76
1 A I don't recall the month. It was the
2 month that her grandmother passed away.
3 Q You were married November of '84?
4 A November 10th. Yes.
5 Q You came to the Schindlers' condominium
6 in
7 that?
8 A Correct.
9 Q Then in '85, the spring of '85, did you
10 come back to
11 A Did we come back?
12 Q A plane trip?
13 A I don't believe so. I don't recall
14 that.
15 Q After Terri's accident, which was
16 February 1990, were you employed at that time?
17 A After Terri's accident? Yes. I was.
18 Q Shortly after the accident, didn't you
19 stop working at Agostino's?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When did you then become reemployed?
22 A I went back to Agostino's for a month or
23 so. I worked part-time for them. They were under
24 new ownership so -- and that went belly up. Then
25 I just -- I didn't work. I went back to school in
77
1 '93,I believe.
2 Q And you began your employment with
3 Morton Plant in 1996?
4 A Correct.
5 Q So basically from the beginning of 1990
6 until 1996 you were unemployed; is that correct?
7 A Yes.
8 Q You were talking about some of the fund
9 raisers that you testified to previously. Can you
10 tell me about some of the details of the fund
11 raisers?
12 A We sold hot dogs, or I sold hot dogs on
13
14 Publix. We had a Valentine's Day dance for her
15 with the association. The association I believe,
16 around Christmas, they put a luminary -- you buy
17 the bag in Terri's name. They did that on St.
18 Pete Beach to help raise money.
19 Q Where were all those funds that you were
20 raising, where were they being maintained?
21 A At First Union Bank.
22 Q Did she work for Prudential at the time?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did the Prudential employees get
25 together and have a fund racier?
78
1 A I don't recall. I don't remember that.
2 Q Was there a fund raiser promoted by the
3
4 A Yes. I said I was on the news.
5 Q About how much money did all those
6 different fund raisers raise?
7 A Probably close to about 20,000. I'm not
8 sure. You would have to check on the old
9 records.
10 Q Did you also receive a payment, pay-out,
11 from Prudential from insurance proceeds that Terri
12 was entitled to?
13 A It was her life insurance, yes, that she
14 was entitled to.
15 Q How much was that?
16 A 10,000.
17 Q Did you also receive Terri's social
18 security checks during that time frame?
19 A No. Terri could not get social security
20 because she was still receiving her payment from
21 work.
22 Q Did you receive any SSI from Terri?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you move to
25
79
1 A That sounds correct.
2 Q And you lived in the Schindlers' condo?
3 A Yes. We did.
4 Q How much rent were you paying at the
5 time?
6 A I don't recall.
7 Q About $400 a month?
8 A Sounds correct. Yeah.
9 Q Now you testified previously that
10 afterwards you moved to
11 true that you moved to
12 A Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I forgot about
13 that one.
14 Q You moved to
15 1989; is that correct?
16 A I don't remember the date.
17 Q If you could bear with me and listen to
18 the time frame. I believe you testified that you
19 moved into the Schindlers' condo in April of '86
20 and then moved to
21 in 1989? Was it previously to --
22 A I don't recall the dates, ma'am.
23 Q Was it right prior to Terri's accident,
24 which would have been in February 1990?
25 A I don't recall the dates that we moved
80
1 in there and moved around. The accident happened
2 at
3 Q How long did you live in
4 A I just remembered it. I don't
5 remember.
6 Q Months?
7 A It was a few months. Yeah.
8 Q How long did you live in
9 prior to Terri's accident?
10 A Eight months, I believe. I'm not sure.
11 Q During that entire time that you were
12 living in the Schindlers' condo, from '86 until
13 sometime in '89, were you paying rent consistently
14 during that time?
15 A No. We were not.
16 MR. FELOS: Objection. I believe that
17 is a mischaracterization of his testimony. He
18 didn't testify that he lived in the Schindler's
19 condo from '86 to 1989.
20 THE COURT: I'll overrule the
21 objection. I think there is enough in there to
22 allow that kind of question.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Repeat the
24 question.
25 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did you pay rent to
81
1 the Schindlers then during that entire time you
2 were living in the Schindler's condo?
3 A No. They were gracious and let us slide
4 a couple months when we could not afford it.
5 Q Just a few months?
6 AI don't remember how many months, ma'am.
7 Q Did the Schindlers assist you in moving
8 from
9 A No. I don't recall.
10 Q Did they contribute $900 for your moving
11 expenses?
12 A I don't recall that.
13 Q When you moved from the Schindlers'
14 condo, is it your testimony then that you moved
15 from the Schindlers' condo to
16 A That would have to be. Yeah.
17 Q When you moved from the condo to
19 at that time to secure a new apartment?
20 A I don't recall.
21 Q Right after Terri's accident, wasn't
22 Mrs. Schindler right there by your side helping
23 with Terri each step of the way?
24 A Not all the time. No.
25 Q Would you describe your relationship as
82
1 close in trying to assist Terri?
2 A My mother-in-law and I were close. Yes.
3 Q In February of 1991, a year after the
4 accident, didn't you, the three of you, live
5 together?
6 A Yes.
7 Q You and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?
8 A Yes.
9 Q With the hopes that Terri would then
10 ultimately come home and live there with you?
11 A Yes.
12 Q At that time, were you sharing in the
13 expenses, you and the Schindlers?
14 A Which home are you speaking of?
15 Q Hemosita in
16 A That home was in my name. I was paying
17 half the rent. Mr. and Mrs. Schindler and their
18 daughter were paying the other half.
19 Q Other expenses that you shared,
20 Power, telephone bill, they were shared as well?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You were in the larger home with hopes-
23 that Terri would be able to come and live there
24 with you?
25 A We- were-in -the larger home, but it was
83
1 not with the hopes that Terri could live with us.
2 Because we only rented the place.
3 Q Was there a reason why it was in, the
4 lease was in your name as opposed to
5 Mr. Schindler's name?
6 A Because Mr. and Mrs. Schindler went
7 bankrupt and they could not get credit.
8 Q But you all shared the home equally?
9 A Mr. and Mrs. Schindler and Suzanne and
10 myself.
11 Q Was there a time then in that you moved
12 from that house to another house with the
13 Schindlers?
14 A No.
15 Q When you were describing the different
16 places where Terri went, from Northside to
17 Bayfront and to the Mediplex,
18 would Mrs. Schindler go with you to those
19 individual facilities to visit Terri?
20 A She went. Yes. But not all the time.
21 Q The time Terri was home living in the
22 home with you, Mrs. Schindler lived there, too?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did she assist you in taking care of
25 Terri during that time frame?
84
1 A Yes. She did.
2 Q The incident then that happened, the
3 disagreement in Terri's room in February of 1993
4 between you and Mr. and Mrs. Schindler, to that
5 time frame, was it shortly thereafter that you
6 decided to withhold medical information from the
7 Schindlers?
8 A I don't know the exact time frame, but I
9 believe it was.
10 Q Do you recall then how long it was then
11 until you started allowing the Schindlers to learn
12 more about the medical condition of their
13 daughter?
14 A I don't recall the time frame.
15 Q Do you recall in 1996 your attorney,
16 Deborah Bushnell, sending a letter to the
17 Schindlers allowing them to now be able to get
18 information about their daughter?
19 A Yes. I remember that.
20 Q Prior to that kind of communication
21 going in 1996 -- so from '93 to 1996, did you
22 allow the nursing home to talk to Mr. and Mrs.
23 Schindler about their daughter's medical
24 condition?
25 A Yeah. Um-hmm.
85
1 Q It's your testimony here today that the
2 nursing home was permitted, from 1993 to 1996, to
3 discuss Terri's medical condition with the
4 Schindlers?
5 A I believe after I left I told them not
6 to -- to disregard or whatever, that other order.
7 Yeah. I'm not sure of the exact time frame.
8 Q Would it surprise you to know that the
9 nursing home was not giving out information during
10 that time frame to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?
11 MR. FELOS: Objection. Lack of
12 foundation.
13 THE COURT: Overruled.
14 A I'm sorry. Repeat your question.
15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Would it surprise you
16 to know that the nursing home was not giving out
17 information to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler from '93 to
18 '96?
19 A The way Sabal Palms went, it would not
20 surprise me. But I know they get information.
21 Q I'm sorry. What was the last point?
22 A I know they did get information.
23 Q Who do you believe they received
24 information from?
25 A Elaine Nelson. The social worker.
86
1 Q From Sabal Palms?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And the different facilities that you
4 would take Terri to, for example when she would go
5 to
6 you ever requested as the guardian as to whether
7 or not there were any advanced directives from
8 Theresa Schiavo?
9 A From the hospital?
10 Q Yes.
11 A I don't remember any of those.
12 Q On any of the hospital admission dates,
13 do you recall anyone from admissions going over
14 paperwork with you?
15 A Yeah.
16 Q Do you recall them asking you whether or
17 not Theresa Schiavo had any advanced directives
18 such as a living will?
19 A I don't recall them asking that.
20 Q What do you believe that your testimony
21 would have been to that? What do you think your
22 answer would have been?
23 A If they would have asked me at that time
24 frame that she was --
25 Q The question is whether or not she had a
87
1 living will?
2 A My answer would be no. She does not
3 have a living will.
4 Q Did you ever seek legal assistance or
5 authorize an attorney to demand payment
6 reimbursement to you of the Schindlers for some
7 money for a credit card debt?
8 A This -- I don't recall that.
9 Q In 1993, do you recall an attorney Jan
10 Piper?
11 A Yes. I do.
12 Q Do you recall Mr. Piper sending a letter
13 to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler on your behalf demanding
14 payment of, a refund of some credit card debt?
15 A I remember him sending a letter. I
16 don't know if it was about a credit card.
17 Q What was your recollection of what was
18 the dispute between you and Mr. and Mrs.
19 Schindler?
20 A I don't remember, but I don't think it
21 was a credit card.
22 Q You do recall Mr. Piper sending a letter
23 on your behalf to the Schindlers? A demand
24 letter?
25 A I do recall that. Yes.
88
1 Q Is it your testimony here today that
2 you never agreed with Mr. and Mrs. Schindler to
3 reimburse them for any of the expenses that they
4 had advanced to you and Terri in the way of moving
5 expenses?
6 A I never agreed with them.
7 Q You never agreed to reimburse them?
8 A I never agreed. They never even brought
9 it up.
10 Q So your testimony is today that you and
11 the Schindlers never discussed repayment of any of
12 the loans made to you?
13 A No. We have never discussed that.
14 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, objection. The
15 question is improper because the witness has
16 denied that there were any loans. The question
17 is --
18 THE COURT: The question is did you ever
19 agree to reimburse. I don't know how you
20 categorize it. We can get real technical. I
21 think the Court understands the nature of the
22 question. I will allow it.
23 MS. CAMPBELL: The question went to a
24 discussion between he and the Schindlers, and I
25 believe the answer was no. There was no other
89
1 discussions. No further questions.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. Redirect?
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. FELOS:
5 Q Just to clarify a couple of things, Mr.
6 Schiavo, there was some testimony about life
7 insurance. Was in fact the payments that Terri
8 received disability payments from Prudential?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Not life insurance benefits?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You also testified about social security
13 benefits. I recall you saying that Terri did not
14 receive social security benefits. Was that during
15 the time she was receiving disability from
16 Prudential?
17 A Say it again to me.
18 Q Did Terri ever -- did Terri ever receive
19 any social security benefits while she was
20 receiving disability payments from Prudential?
21 A No.
22 Q Did she receive social security payments
23 after that?
24 A Yes.
25 Q In fact, are you aware of any written
90
1 advanced directive by Terri regarding removal of
2 life support and medical treatment? Are you aware
3 of any living will executed by Terri?
4 A No. I'm not.
5 Q I believe you mentioned you were
6 engaged. How long have you been engaged?
7 A Four years.
8 Q Do you have a wedding date?
9 A We have no wedding date set.
10 MR. FELOS: I have no other questions.
11 THE COURT: Thank you. You can stand
12 down, Mr. Schiavo.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
15 MR. FELOS: We call Scott Schiavo.
16 THE COURT: Raise your right hand for
17 me, please.
18 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
19 THE COURT.)
20 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Have a
21 seat there, please.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MS. FELOS:
24 Q Good morning. State your full name for
25 the record, please.
91
1 A Scott Schiavo.
2 Q Mr. Schiavo, where do you live?
3 A In
4 Q How long have you been there?
5 A A little over three years.
6 Q Where did you live before then?
7 A In
8 Q Approximately where is that located?
9 A It's, I guess close to northeast
10
11 Q Thank you. Have you lived in the
12
13 A The suburbs of
14 my life.
15 Q Mr. Schiavo, what is your educational
16 background?
17 A I graduated high school. I graduated
18 from
19 Q Are you currently employed?
20 A Yes. I am.
21 Q What do you do?
22 A I'm a landscaper.
23 Q What do you do in your work?
24 A I install irrigation systems.
25 Q Are you related to Mike Schiavo?
92
1 A Yes.
2 Q How?
3 A He is my younger brother.
4 Q Tell us about your general family
5 background. Are your parents still living?
6 A My father is. Yes.
7 Q Your mother?
8 A She passed away.
9 Q Approximately when was that?
10 A What year is it? Its going to be three
11 years this July.
12 Q What about your grandparents, are they
13 still alive?
14 A No. They have passed away.
15 Q You have brothers?
16 A Yes. I do. Four.
17 Q How many?
18 A Four.
19 Q Any sisters?
20 A No. I don't.
21 Q Are all the brothers living?
22 A Yes. They are.
23 Q What about are they married?
24 A Yes. They are.
25 1 Q So you have how many sister-in-laws?
93
1 A I have four.
2 Q So Theresa Schiavo, Michael's wife, is
3 your sister-in-law; is that correct?
4 A Yes. She is.
5 Q When did you meet her?
6 A I believe it was around October. I
7 believe it was of 1983.
8 Q How did you meet her?
9 A At a family gathering at my brother's
10 house.
11 Q What kind of gathering was this?
12 A If I remember correctly, it was my
13 brother's birthday.
14 Q Was this a date or something that Mike
15 had with her?
16 A Yes.
17 Q They were not married yet?
18 A No. He brought her there on a date to
19 meet the family.
20 Q Did you then see Theresa after that
21 period of time when you first met her that
22 evening?
23 A On other occasions?
24 Q Um-hmm.
25 A Yes. Many.
94
1 Q In what way? When did you have occasion
2 to see her again?
3 A Typically, family gatherings. There was
4 times that Mike and Terri would stop into my house
5 or -- but it was mainly family gatherings.
6 Q So they just would pop in or --
7 A Yeah. That is the way we were. You did
8 not need an invite to come to any of our houses.
9 If you were around the corner, you stopped in. It
10 was pretty much an open door family type of deal.
11 You did not have to call somebody up and invite
12 them over to visit or whatever. They just stopped
13 in.
14 Q So how often would you say you saw
15 Terri?
16 A On average I would say one to two times
17 a week depending on the holiday season. Because
18 we had several birthdays or a couple each month or
19 whatever.
20 Q Were you married then?
21 A Yes. I was.
22 Q Any children?
23 A I have one. I had one at the time.
24 Q What is the child's name?
25 A Her name is Aileen.
95
1 Q When was she born?
2 A In February of 1983.
3 Q Okay. Probably you might have met Terri
4 before then?
5 A Yes. Before the baby was born.
6 Q I think you said 1 83.
7 A I'm sorry. The baby was born -- let me
8 get the dates right here. She was born in
9 February of '93 (sic)
10 Q ' 83?
11 A The baby was born before Terri.
12 Because we met Terri in October of 1983.
13 Q Did Terri take any special interest in
14 Aileen?
15 A My daughter, five weeks old, had
16 developed SIDS. She was taken to Children's
17 Hospital of
18 Q Um-hmm.
19 A Terri would call us. When we came home,
20 of course all my family would come to see us.
21 This and that. See the baby. But Terri, she had
22 brought her a little stuffed puppy that my
23 daughter still has to this day.
24 Q And how old is she now?
25 A Seventeen in February.
96
1 Q What was Terri like when you were seeing
2 so much of her?
3 A As in?
4 Q What kind of personality did she have?
5 A A beautiful person. Terri was
6 outgoing. The first we met her, I guess at any
7 date your first time coming to a family she was
8 kind of uncomfortable, not knowing everybody when
9 she came in. But after, boy, an hour or so, she
10 just lightened up. By the end of the night, she
11 was having a great time when she knew everybody.
12 My brother is kind of a crazy guy.
13 Likes to have a good time. She loosened up real
14 nice. I have never seen Terri uncomfortable
15 around my family or any event since then.
16 Q So she was friendly?
17 A Yes.
18 Q What about a sense of humor? Did she
19 have a sense of humor?
20 A Yes. In fact, I still to this day have
21 a card she sent my wife on a postcard from
22 of some gentlemen with their back sides bared and
23 a little letter saying to my wife, "Geez, Karen,
24 these are my four new boyfriends. Do you want to
25 come over?"
97
1 Q She was joking around?
2 A Yes. She was joking around. She just
3 had that type of sense of humor. Like my whole
4 family. She sort of like built into it.
5 Q Did you ever see Terri without Mike?
6 A Yes. I have. There is times when Mike
7 -- Mike was a manager for McDonald's and he also
8 at the time. And she would, if there was a
9 family get together, whatever, Terri would show
10 up. Terri didn't -- she was -- she sort of
11 blended in with us.
12 Same thing, she stopped at our house
13 before on a night that Mike was working because
14 they only lived around the corner from where we
15 lived. She would show up. Sit down and watch TV
16 with us. Talk to my wife about things. You know
17 how girls get together and chat. She would do
18 stuff like that.
19 Q What kind of relationship did you have
20 with Terri?
21 A Um, I would say more as a sister than a
22 sister-in-law. That goes for all of us. My
23 mother always said that she never had any
24 daughters, but she had her four girls.
25 Q It's okay. Are you okay?
98
1 A Yeah. It's a tough thing.
2 Q Let's kind of go back for a little bit
3 of recollection.
4 A No. She would -- our family is -- we
5 have sister-in-laws, brother-in-laws, whatever.
6 They became more of a sister or brother, it was,
7 and was not treated as inlaws.
8 Q Okay. Thank you. Have you seen Terri
9 since the medical accident that she had?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When would that have been? You saw her
12 down here, I presume?
13 A Yes. It was. I came out here in --
14 I'm trying to think of the date.
15 Q That's okay. We can come back to it. I
16 can see you need to relax a little bit.
17 A I believe it was in 1990 --
18 approximately six years ago.
19 Q So '94? Something like that?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Okay. That is the only time you have
22 been in
23 A Yeah.
24 Q Something -- did you do any recording or
25 something for Terri when her accident first
99
1 occurred?
2 A Yes. When Terri -- when this first
3 happened to Terri, we were all told Mike was
4 trying to do whatever he could for Terri. They
5 had said to stimulate Terri's listening skills I
6 guess, and her brain, that if she heard familiar
7 voices and everything else -- so we all had met at
8 my mother and father's house when they are living
9 back in
10 We took turns and went into my parent's
11 bedroom and we each made our own little recording
12 on the tape to talk to Terri. We then sent it to
13 Mike where he had purchased a Sony walkman tape
14 for her to listen to.
15 Q Besides Terri, have you ever had a
16 relative maintained on artificial life support?
17 A Yes. My grandmother.
18 Q Tell us a little bit about how that
19 happened.
20 A Well, she had -- it was a touchy
21 situation because she had signed a-living will, a
22 DNR, but the doctor at the time did not have it in
23 his hand. When she had taken a turn for the
24 worse, they performed I guess CPR and put her on
25 the life support system.
100
1 Q Then what happened?
2 A Well, it was totally against her will
3 and there was nothing we could do because they
4 said once you're on it, you can't just turn it
5 off.
6 Q So that is what they told you?
7 A Yes. And her doctor mentioned there
8 are ways they can work with the medication or
9 whatever because at the time she was only being
10 kept alive by a machine. She was pretty much
11 gone. It upset us all because it was not the way
12 she wanted to be kept alive. To see her like
13 that, it was not the memory that we all wanted.
14 Q When you say "we all", who was there?
15 A At the time it was my mother and father,
16 my two aunts, two uncles, my three older brothers,
17 and two of my sister-in-laws because at the time
18 my one brother was not married. Myself. My wife
19 was home with my kids because we had an infant at
20 the time.
21 I got a phone call that Saturday morning
22 that she was not doing well. So my one brother
23 picked me up on the way to the hospital.
24 Q So it sounds like the whole family was
25 there except for --
101
1 A Yes. Well, Mike was not. Mike was
2 living here in Florida.
3 Q When did your grandmother die?
4 A She passed on that same day, later on.
5 Q Did Mike and Terri come up for the
6 funeral?
7 A Yes. They came for the funeral at that
8 time.
9 Q Were there any conversations at the
10 funeral or after regarding your grandmother?
11 A Yes. There was. At a luncheon that we
12 had, you know, my family, friends and stuff.
13 Q Kind of describe that for us.
14 A We went to a, it's called a country club
15 but we went there for a luncheon afterwards.
16 There was family, friends, relatives. We were
17 sitting around. At the time, it was pretty much
18 all the brothers and sisters sitting around the
19 table.
20 And we were discussing, talking about my
21 grandmother, because she was a great woman. We
22 were kind of upset about the way that she left the
23 world. It was not her wish the way she wanted to
24 live.
25 Q So where were you sitting?
102
1 A We were sitting around somewhat of a
2 round table. We were all sitting around it at the
3 time. My wife was to my right and it was pretty
4 much boy/girl all the way around. We came out.
5 Terri was sitting on my left-hand side.
6 I was really upset because they did this
7 to my grandmother. We were all like "it stinks".
8 The only reason why they put you on these things
9 is to raise more money for the hospital.
10 Basically that is the way I felt.
11 If somebody is gone, why keep them on a
12 machine? If -- they are great machines if you are
13 going to save somebody's life or open heart
14 surgery, this and that, but when somebody is gone
15 that means God intends for them to go, and if they
16 are going to be kept alive on a machine, they are
17 not really living.
18 And Terri made mention at that
19 conversation that, "If I ever go like that, just
20 let me go. Don't leave me there. I don't want to
21 be kept alive on a machine." Pretty much
22 everybody at that table that was in the discussion
23 had made the same comment. No way I want to be
24 kept alive on a machine.
25 Q What do you mean by machine?
103
1 A Artificially. It is something that is
2 breathing for you. It is not really your own
3 heart pumping air into your blood and oxygen to
4 your brain and everything else. It is an
5 artificial way of being kept alive.
6 Q Does that mean anything else? Anything
7 to do with tubes or other kind of artificial life
8 support?
9 A There is also the case that -- my
10 sister-in-law, for one. She passed away. The
11 reason why I was out here for and I saw Terri is
12 that my sister-in-law was diagnosed with
13 inoperable brain cancer. This is my wife's
14 sister. Her last wish was for my wife's whole
15 family to go to Disney World. When we came out
16 here, my wife's grandmother had lived in
17 Clearwater, so we stayed here a couple of days.
18 That is when I saw Terri for the first,
19 time after the incident. But when we went home,
20 it was within six months that my sister-in-law had
21 to be put on a feeding tube because she could not
22 eat or swallow. She lost all ability to swallow
23 her food and everything else.
24 Q So what happened?
25 A So they put her on a feeding tube.
104
1 Q Did they take it out?
2 A Yes. Because it was doing -- she could
3 not have a bowel movement. She started to
4 actually throw up her own feces because it was
5 backing up in her system.
6 Q When you are referring to, as you have,
7 to a number of situations such as the grandmother
8 and sister, you talk about artificial life support
9 and machines, you are looking at the whole
10 artificial life support system?
11 A Yes. Artificial life support, to me
12 it's all well and great if it is going to help
13 somebody live for a period that, you know, there
14 is a new heart coming in and you know they are
15 waiting for that and it's going to keep them alive
16 until that heart is transplanted or whatever. But
17 if there is nothing there, why prolong that
18 person's agony?
19 Q So in your understanding, at the time
20 you were at your grandmother's funeral luncheon
21 and the conversation was between all the brothers
22 and sister-in-laws -
23 A Yes.
24 Q -- Terri shared that opinion?
25 A Yes. She did.
105
1 Q If Terri did not share that opinion, do
2 you think she would have spoken up?
3 A If she didn't?
4 Q Right.
5 A I feel if she did not share that
6 opinion, she would not have said anything. The
7 only reason she said it is because she shared the
8 same opinion as us. If -- I guess is what I'm
9 trying to say --
10 Q Well, we don't need to guess.
11 A Well, I think if she didn't want it, I
12 think she would have --
13 Q You mentioned what she said at the time.
14 A Yes.
15 Q Now were there any other occasions where
16 an issue on artificial life support came up that
17 you had between you and Terri? Any other
18 conversations about artificial life support?
19 A I believe it was basically that, you
20 know, because we had talked about it at the table.
21 Q So that was the only time it ever came
22 up?
23 A Yes.
24 Q When did you first mention this
25 recollection of that event?
106
1 A When did I?
2 Q How did that come about?
3 A How did I?
4 Q How did you -- how did it come about
5 that you mentioned that you remembered this event
6 at your grandmother's funeral?
7 A It was something that -- we all talked
8 about it that day. It was like we all went home,
9 grieved, and had to pretty much go on with our
10 lives. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever see
11 this happening to Terri, but when this was all
12 coming about --
13 Q When you say this was all coming about,
14 like when? The last couple of years or -
15 A No. No. It came up when I spoke to
16 Mike's lawyer about if I had ever heard Terri
17 mention this or that. If she ever came to me, sat
18 down and talked to me about something. This and
19 that. I had mentioned that on this date that at
20 my grandmother's funeral we talked about this as a
21 family. As all the kids in the family.
22 And Terri was sitting with us and Terri
23 made the mention that she would never want to be
24 kept alive like that. You know, if it is her time
25 to go, it's her time to go.
107
1 Q Do you remember approximately when that
2 was when you talked to -- it was Mr. Felos, I
3 presume?
4 A He called me on a Sunday morning.
5 Q Within the last year?
6 A Yes. It was either September or
7 October.
8 Q Okay.
9 A I work seven days a week.
10 Q Of 1 99?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Okay. I don't have any -- maybe I do.
13 Excuse me. With respect to the last question when
14 you spoke to Mr. Felos sometime in September/
15 October of '99, did you tell Mike about this
16 before that time or after you spoke with
17 Mr. Felos?
18 A It was after. It was after Mike.
19 Because Mike had -- I talked to Mike. Told him I
20 spoke to his lawyer. He asked me how it went. I
21 told him "Everything I knew, Mike." He had said
22 what was that? I said, "Do you remember
23 grandmom's funeral at the dinner?" He said I
24 didn't think about that.
25 I said my mother used to kid me saying
108
1 that if you want to know something, call Scott
2 because he knows it. I seem to remember stuff for
3 some reason.
4 MS. FELOS: Thank you. I have no
5 further questions.
6 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross-
7 examination?
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
10 Q Mr. Schiavo, my name is Pam Campbell. I
11 am the attorney for Mr. and Mrs. Schindler,
12 Theresa's parents. What year did your grandmother
13 die?
14 A She passed away in February of 1986
15 ' 88.
16 Q Do you recall when Terri and Mike moved
17 to Florida?
18 A They moved to Florida, I believe in the
19 spring of, let's see. I believe the spring of '85
20 or '86. ' 86, I believe.
21 Q Did you see Terri or Mike very much
22 after they moved to Florida?
23 A Just when they came back. In fact, they
24 surprised me one night. I had called my father's
25 house from work. Mike answered the phone. You
109
1 know, it was like Mike. "No. You've got the
2 wrong number." I hung up. I called back. My dad
3 answered. I said, "Was that Mike?" He said no.
4 No.
5 Later on that night -- I had lived in a
6 mobile home. I was putting up new skirting. As I
7 came back in the house, there was Mike and Terri.
8 I said, "You son of a gun. I knew you were
9 there." When they came back, they would stop in
10 and see us.
11 Q Was that prior to your grandmother's
12 death?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Do you have any advance directives such
15 as a living will?
16 A Myself?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes. I do.
19 Q What would your personal wishes be?
20 A My personal wishes are if I'm in a
21 situation that I cannot be saved, I just want to
22 go.
23 Q Would you want artficial [sic] nutrition and
24 hydration withdrawn or withheld?
25 A No (sic) Not if it was not going to
110
1 save me within a week or two. If I was waiting
2 for a new heart or something, yes. But if there
3 was no outlook in my life, I would not want to
4 live like this. No.
5 Q How long of a time frame would you
6 expect somebody to wait for the artificial heart
7 in the hypothetical?
8 A I would say a week. Two weeks at the
9 most.
10 Q At this luncheon where your grandmother
11 was discussed, did your brother share in your
12 anger? You testified you were angry and upset
13 about what happened to your grandmother. Did your
14 brother share in that?
15 MS. FELOS: Objection. He never said
16 anger. He did say upset.
17 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Excuse me. Did your
18 brother share in the upset?
19 A Sure. We all were. It was something
20 that, you know, knowing my grandmother, it was
21 upsetting to see, to walk in to say goodbye to
22 your grandmother and the machine has her lifting
23 off the bed for air. Her chest pumping up. When
24 you go to talk to her, she stared at the ceiling.
25 This was not my grandmother living
111
1 there. As far as I was concerned, her spirit had
2 already gone to Heaven.
3 Q How long was your grandmother on the
4 ventilator?
5 A From the early morning hours till mid
6 afternoon of the same day.
7 Q So it was on that same day that you saw
8 your grandmother in that condition?
9 A Yes.
10 Q At this luncheon, how many people were
11 at the luncheon?
12 A I could not give you an absolute honest
13 figure. Several people were there. A lot of
14 relatives. Some friends of hers.
15 Q Was Michael Schiavo there?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Approximately how large was the table?
18 A I believe it sat, I think a seating of
19 twelve.
20 Q Was it just one table of family members
21 and friends?
22 A No. No. In fact, we had some cousins
23 there. Two of my cousins that were not married
24 where sitting with us, too.
25 1 Q So did your family occupy several tables
112
1 within this country club setting?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Was Michael sitting on the other side of
4 Terri?
5 A Yes. He was.
6 Q Did you specifically hear Terri make the
7 comment?
8 A Yes. I did. With my own ears. She was
9 sitting to my left.
10 Q She was not just sharing the opinion
11 that was expressed at the table?
12 A No. She had made a statement that if I
13 was in this predicament, let me go. If it is my
14 time, it is my time.
15 Q Are you aware of what kind of feeding
16 tube or ventilator, any kind of life support
17 system that Terri is on currently?
18 A Am I aware of them?
19 Q Um-hmm.
20 A I'm aware she is on a feeding tube.
21 Yes.
22 Q Is Terri on a ventilator?
23 A No. She's not.
24 Q Have you seen Terri this visit?
25 A No. I just got in last night. I got up
113
1 this morning and came here, but I do expect to go
2 see her before I leave.
3 Q You testified the prior time for you to
4 see Terri was about six years ago?
5 A Yes. Approximately. It was in -- yeah.
6 Approximately six years ago.
7 Q In that six year time frame, have you
8 made any other tapes or any other kind of
9 communication for Terri to listen to?
10 A No. I did not.
11 Q Did you ever talk with Michael Schiavo,
12 prior to your talking with his attorney, about
13 Terri's conversation at the grandmother's funeral
14 luncheon?
15 A No. I did not. Like I said, we left
16 there that day. We did see each other before Mike
17 and Terri had left again to come back to
18 but I mean, it was all a statement that we were
19 talking about because it was fresh in our mind.
20 We had just buried our grandmother. It
21 is not the way she would want to leave the world
22 the way she was left. We were all -- so pretty
23 much like a conversation at dinner. Its not
24 something you bring up everyday because you just
25 don't think about it. You go on with your life.
114
1 When I was approached and asked if I
2 ever heard this or Terri make a statement of this
3 matter, yes. I did hear, with my own ears, Terri
4 make a statement.
5 Q When Terri's accident occurred in
6 February 1990, did you come to Florida then?
7 A No. I did not. But my brother, Brian,
8 called me and told me about this incident. And
9 the first thing I was doing was going for my
10 credit card to call. My wife said to me, "Look,
11 Scott. If they need you there, I know they will
12 call you." I was like, "I've got to be there for
13 them." Talking to my brother, Brian, he said
14 "Mom, dad, and I are going. You've got kids. A
15 job. We will keep you informed and everything
16 else."
17 So that is basically what we did. It
18 was not going to do Terri any good to have us, all
19 five of us, clamoring around.
20 Q From the time of the accident then until
21 six years ago when you came to see Terri, were you
22 with Terri during that time frame?
23 A No. I was not. I could not afford it.
24 Like I said, it was -- the first -- my first
25 instinct was get a ticket and be there for Terri.
115
1 When I calmed down and stopped -- at the time, I
2 had three children. An infant. It was
3 financially impossible for m& to do this.
4 Q When you came down six years ago, were
5 you surprised to learn that Terri was on a feeding
6 tube?
7 A No. I was -- at the time, I was told
8 she was on it.
9 Q Did you see a feeding tube?
10 A No. She was not being fed at the time.
11 Q Did you remind Michael, at the time, of
12 Terri's comments about not wanting to live like
13 that?
14 A No. Because that day, it was a very
15 tough year for myself. My son was diagnosed with
16 juvenile diabetes February 1st of that year, and
17 on April 6th of that year my sister-in-law was
18 diagnosed with brain cancer. Everything was
19 snowballing. I had a lot on my plate at the time.
20 Then when I went to see Terri, it was a very tough
21 afternoon. It just didn't click or anything.
22 Q When you saw Terri, on that day was it?
23 Just one day?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Did she make any response or reaction to
116
1 you?
2 A Absolutely none.
3 Q Were her eyes open or closed?
4 A She just stared at the ceiling.
5 Q Did her head turn toward you when you
6 talked to her?
7 A I don't believe so. No.
8 Q Do you know whether Mr. Felos spoke
9 with any other of your brothers?
10 A To be honest with you, I don't believe
11 so. I personally don't know if he talked to any
12 of them.
13 Q Why do you think he specifically spoke
14 then to you?
15 A Because I told Mike that if he needed me
16 for anything, I'm there for you. That is
17 basically why.
18 Q Are you and Mike still real close?
19 A We are all close, my brothers. Any one
20 of us would be there for him. I mean, we were.
21 Q When your mother passed away, was that
22 here in Pinellas County?
23 A No. It was not.
24 Q Where did she pass away?
25 A She passed away in Langhorne,
1 Pennsylvania.
2 Q Was her funeral held there?
3 A Yes.
4 MS. CAMPBELL: No further questions.
5 THE COURT: Thank you. Redirect?
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
7 BY MS. FELOS:
8 Q Mr. Schiavo, you wanted your
9 grandmother's wishes honored; didn't you?
10 A Yes.
11 Q You would want your wishes honored?
12 A Yes. I would.
13 Q You would want anybody's wishes honored;
14 isn't that correct?
15 A I believe that.
16 Q Whatever the person wished, you
17 would want to go along with that?
18 A Yes. That is what they wished.
19 Q Have you ever been in Florida in the
20 last ten years where you did not see Terri?
21 A No.
22 Q When you were in her nursing home room-,
23 what other things did you observe? Ms. Campbell
24 mentioned a few things. What other things did you
25 observe about her-?--
118
1 A It was very uneasy for me to see her
2 arms and legs, which were curled up, twisted. It
3 was -- it was just like it was not Terri. It was
4 like an old beat up car. Just mangled up. It was
5 sickening.
6 Q You don't know personally who Mr. Felos
7 spoke to; do you?
8 A No. Not personally.
9 Q You don't have that information; is that
10 correct?
11 A No. I don't know.
12 MS. FELOS: Thank you. No further
13 questions.
14 THE COURT: Anything further?
15 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. You may stand
17 down. Why don't we break for lunch now. Be back
18 at 1:15 by my watch. I have about 12 to 12:00.
19 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in
20 recess.
21 (THEREUPON, COURT RESUMED AT 1:15 P.M.)
22 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit court
23 is back in session.
24 THE COURT: Are you ready to proceed?
25 MS. FELOS: Yes, judge. We are having
119
1 some technical difficulties. If you would bear
2 with us for one moment.
3 THE COURT: Very well.
4 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, at this time, I
5 wanted to read a portion of the depositions of
6 Robert and Mary Schindler.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Felos, do you want to do
8 that a little slower than normal?
9 MR. FELOS: This is from the deposition
10 of Robert Schindler taken August 12, 1999
11 starting on Page 67, Line 24.
12 Question. Hypothetically, if Terri told
13 Michael I don't want to be kept alive artficially [sic],
14 would that change your position in this case?
15 Answer. No.
16 Next from the deposition of Mary
17 Schindler taken August 12, 1999 starting on Page
18 62.
19 Question. And Mr. Schiavo then says
20 that Theresa told him that if anything happened to
21 her where she had to be cared for by others, open
22 quotation, please don't let me live like that,
23 close quotation. Does that seem to be unusual or
24 out of character for Theresa?
25 Answer. I don't know. I don't know
120
1 that.
2 Moving to Page 63, Line 7. Now
3 hypothetically, this is a hypothetical question,
4 I want you just to assume for purposes of this
5 question that Theresa really did say that. Would
6 that change your position as to whether her life
7 support should be removed in this case?
8 Answer. No.
9 Page 63, Line 23. Again, a hypothetical
10 question. Assuming, just for purposes of this
11 question, that in response to watching those
12 television news shows or programs that with people
13 on life support that Theresa in fact did say that
14 she would not want her life maintained by
15 artificial means, would that change your position
16 as to the removal of her feeding tube?
17 Answer. No.
18 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell, do you wish to
19 have. other portions of those depositions read at
20 this time?
21 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor. Not at
22 this time. Thank you.
23 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we call our next
24 witness, Dr. James Barnhill.
25 THE BAILIFF: Would you stand right
121
1 here, face the judge, and raise your right hand.
2 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
3 THE COURT.)
4 THE COURT: Thank you, sir.
5 THE BAILIFF: Be seated right in this
6 box.
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. FELOS:
9 Q Good afternoon. Would you state your
10 name for the record, please?
11 A James Barnhill.
12 Q And you are a medical doctor?
13 A Yes. I am.
14 Q I'm going to ask you a few questions
15 about your credentials. Where did you receive
16 your medical degree?
17 A University of Florida.
18 Q When was that?
19 A 1978.
20 Q Have you done an internship, and if so,
21 where?
22 A Yes. I also did an internship at the
23 University of Florida. That was followed by a
24 residency at the University of Florida. A
25 residency in neurology.
122
1 Q Have you done any other type of study,
2 internship, or residency other than that?
3 A No.
4 Q How long have you been practicing
5 medicine?
6 A I graduated medical school in 1978. I
7 guess since 1978.
8 Q Thank you. Do you have any board
9 certifications?
10 A Yes. I am certified by the American
11 Board of Psychiatry and Neurology in neurology.
12 Q Are you in private practice?
13 A Yes. I am.
14 Q Do you also act as a consulting
15 physician for other physician's patients?
16 A That is the majority of the type of work
17 I do. Yes.
18 Q I see. Do you often render opinions
19 with respect to neurologic disorders?
20 A On a daily basis. Yes.
21 Q Have you ever testified in a court case
22 before?
23 A Yes. I have.
24 Q What case might that be?
25 A I have testified in a number of
123
1 different types of cases. Personal injury cases.
2 Malpractice cases. Another case involving a
3 feeding tube in a patient with a persistent
4 vegetative state.
5 Q So you have testified in a case
6 specifically with regard to removal of artificial
7 life support; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Do you recall the name of the case?
10 A Browning.
11 Q Thank you. How many cases would you say
12 you have testified about neurological orders?
13 A You mean in court or deposition?
14 Q In court.
15 A Half a dozen perhaps over the past
16 sixteen years.
17 Q So you have been accepted and approved
18 by courts for expert testimony; is that correct?
19 A Yes.
20 MS. FELOS: Thank you. Your Honor, we
21 would like to tender this witness as an expert
22 witness and ask if opposing counsel wants to voir
23 dire.
24 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no objection to
25 Dr. Barnhill.
124
1 THE COURT: Thank you very much.
2 Q (By Ms. Felos) Thank you, judge. Now
3 with respect to this matter, this is an adversary
4 proceeding where Mr. Michael Schiavo, who is
5 Theresa Schiavo's husband and guardian of the
6 person, seeks to have a feeding tube removed from
7 Theresa Schiavo, which I will refer to possibly as
8 the ward or patient or by her name. Her name is
9 Theresa Marie Schiavo. Have you examined this
10 patient?
11 A Yes. I have.
12 Q Would you tell us when you have -- how
13 many times and when that might be that you
14 examined the patient?
15 A I examined her twice. The first time
16 was in March of 1998. The second time was last
17 week, January 19th, to be precise.
18 Q Of year 2000? This year?
19 A Right. Yes.
20 Q Thank you. Where did you examine the
21 patient?
22 A At Palm Garden Nursing Home in Largo.
23 Q Thank you. Have you reviewed any
24 records of Mrs. Schiavo?
25 A Yes. I have.
125
1 Q Can you identify what records they would
2 be?
3 A On both occasions, when I went down to
4 the nursing home, I reviewed the chart that is
5 kept there on her. It is a pretty large chart.
6 And I have reviewed a CAT scan of her brain and an
7 EEG.
8 Q Have you formed an opinion with respect
9 to whether Mrs. Schiavo is competent to make
10 medical treatment decisions for herself?
11 A I have.
12 Q And what is that opinion?
13 A She is not competent to do that.
14 Q Is there any reasonable medical
15 probability that Mrs. Schiavo will regain capacity
16 to make medical treatment decisions on her own?
17 A No.
18 Q Have you reviewed the definitions of
19 persistent vegetative state set forth in the
20 Florida Statutes?
21 A Yes. I have.
22 Q Have you reviewed the definitions of the
23 word "terminal" as set forth in the Florida
24 Statutes?
25 A Yes. I have.
126
1 Q Have you formed an opinion as to whether
2 Mrs. Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state
3 as set forth in the statute?
4 A I have and she is.
5 Q Would you tell us how you reached that
6 conclusion with respect to her vegetative state as
7 it pertains to the Florida Statutes that you
8 reviewed.
9 A Basically, a persistent vegetative state
10 is a diagnosis and I formed that diagnosis based
11 on the usual procedure which is to obtain history,
12 examine the patient, and review laboratory data.
13 In this case, the history is based on the chart.
14 The patient can't provide any history. Then I
15 performed a physical examination. Then I reviewed
16 the CAT scan and EEG.
17 Q Thank you. Have you found Mrs.
18 Schiavo's condition to be permanent?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Have you found that condition to be
21 irreversible?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Is it your opinion that Mrs. Schiavo is
24 unconscious?
25 A Yes.
127
1 Q Would you also say that Mrs. Schiavo has
2 an absence of voluntary action or cognitive
3 behavior of any kind?
4 A I would.
5 Q Does Mrs. Schiavo have the inability to
6 communicate or interact purposefully with the
7 environment?
8 A She does.
9 MS. FELOS: Thank you.
10 MS. CAMPBELL: Excuse me. What was that
11 answer?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 Q (By Ms. Felos) You have provided an
14 affidavit for this proceeding, I believe, and I
15 believe it's also in evidence, Your Honor. It has
16 already been admitted into evidence previously.
17 In that affidavit, you make the statement that
18 Mrs. Schiavo is in a terminal condition. What do
19 you mean by that?
20 A She has an irreversible medical
21 condition for which there is no treatment or cure
22 and which, from which she will die if she does not
23 continue to receive supportive measures,
24 specifically the feeding tube.
25 Q Let's talk a little bit about persistent
128
1 vegetative state. Now the Florida Statutes sets
2 forth the definition that you have reviewed and we
3 have mentioned here in court today. Are there any
4 other guidelines that you consider when you are
5 determining whether or not a patient is in a
6 persistent vegetative state?
7 A The American Academy of Neurology has a
8 physician paper. The American Academy of
9 Neurology is an authoritative body that has
10 positions on various topics related to the
11 specialty of neurology, and their paper outlines
12 criteria that permit this diagnosis which are
13 similar to those in the Florida Statute.
14 They add the qualifier of time and they
15 basically say that there needs to be three months
16 pass between the initial insult, whatever it might
17 be, and being able to make this diagnosis as
18 permanent or persistant [sic]. They have other aspects
19 that they propose that you should find. One is
20 the presence of sleep/wake cycles.
21 Virtually all patients who have severe
22 brain injuries that initially result in coma and
23 subsequently result in a persistent vegetative
24 state will at some point pass from an appearance
25 of being in a comma or a sleep to an appearance of
129
1 having cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent
2 sleep. They also emphasize repeated examination.
3 The rest of the criteria, more or less,
4 amounts to the same things that are set forth in
5 the statute regarding the absence of cognitive
6 behavior, voluntary action, and an inability to
7 communicate or interact in some way that would
8 imply awareness.
9 Q Thank you. So if I understand this
10 correctly then, the guidelines that you are using
11 to determine whether a patient is in a persistent
12 vegetative state also includes what we would say
13 more definitive or stringent criteria than even
14 the Florida Statute does, one of which would be a
15 time period that the patient would have had to
16 have been in this state, which would be a period
17 of three months, and also a description of sleep/
18 wake cycles which would differentiate between what
19 might be a comma versus a vegetative state. Would
20 that be a fair description?
21 A I would agree. I think the academy
22 guidelines are more stringent. I think the state
23 statute guidelines, lacking a time criteria, you
24 could have a problem if you evaluated someone at
25 one week and used those criteria.
130
1 Thank you. You know, we hear about a
2 patient -- I think there was something in the news
3 somewhere out West where a patient was supposedly
4 in a comma and woke up and was perfectly normal.
5 Obviously, that is not an evidentiary thing.
6 Nobody has taken that beyond a newspaper article,
7 but how would you explain something like that or
8 can you?
9 A Well, I can think of a couple possible
10 explanations. The first is a miracle, which is by
11 definition, not something I or anybody else can
12 explain. It's a devine [sic] act. I don't rule that
13 out, but that is more or less what that would
14 require, if that were to in fact happen. Unless
15 in fact that patient was not in a comma because of
16 structural brain damage.
17 There are people who appear to be in
18 vegetative states or comatose type states that
19 perhaps are catatonic, which is a psychiatric
20 condition. There are case reports in the medical
21 literature where people have been in prolonged
22 comas and regained some level of function. I have
23 never seen that. I do not know from personal
24 experience that that's possible, so short of a
25 miracle or not having severe structural brain
131
1 damage.
2 Q Thank you. So what is the probability
3 that Theresa Schiavo could become conscious again?
4 A Zero.
5 Q Are there medical tests that support
6 your opinion other than clinical examination and
7 diagnosis?
8 A I think her CAT scan is extremely
9 telling in that regard because it shows severe
10 structural brain damage. And I might say that
11 consciousness, which can be defined in various
12 ways, can most simply be put as an awareness of
13 self or environment. We believe it requires a
14 structural integrity of the brain. The higher
15 brain. What we call the cerebral cortex. That
16 part of the brain that is different in man than in
17 lower animals. That part of the brain is a very
18 complex network, integrated network of functions.
19 When you have overwhelming, severe brain
20 damage destroying large portions of the brain and
21 connections between different areas of the brain,
22 you are no longer capable of having consciousness
23 defined as awareness of self and environment.
24 That does not mean that you are brain dead. It
25 does not mean that reflex activity that is
132
1 generated in the lower brain areas will be
2 absent. In fact, it usually is present.
3 One of the phenomena that exists is a
4 phenomena called release phenomena and that is
5 part of what the higher brain -- the cerebral
6 cortex, the cerebral hemisphere -- does is to
7 supress [sic] primitive reflex behavior.
8 A good example is that a baby does not
9 have to be taught or does not have to be aware or
10 think about anything in order to suck. If you put
11 a bottle or nipple in a baby's mouth, it will suck
12 unless there is something wrong with it. That is
13 a primitive reflex. As you get older and your
14 cerebral hemispheres develop and in fact make
15 connections down, you suppress that. So in a
16 normal adult, you will not see that behavior. The
17 sucking reflex disappears.
18 There are a number of reflexes like
19 that. If you put your hand or fingers in a baby's
20 hand, the baby will reflexively grab your hand.
21 The baby is not thinking about it. It does not
22 mean anything to the baby. I'm talking about a
23 1-day-old baby. As time goes by, the cerebral
24 cortex developes [sic]. A process called myelination
25 ensues and this reflex behavior becomes inhibited.
133
1 So in normal adults, you will not see,
2 if you put your fingers if a patient's hand and
3 the brain is normal, they will not grab your hand
4 reflexively. In fact, when you see that sort of
5 thing, when you see a suck reflex come back or a
6 grasp reflex, or any of a number of other
7 reflexes, what you can know is there is brain
8 damage here because the cortex, which is supposed
9 to suppress this reflex, is not doing it.
10 Q I see. You mention the CAT scan and how
11 you reviewed Theresa Schiavo's CAT scan. Let me
12 show you what's been -- we have marked this as
13 Petitioner's Exhibit Number Four for
14 identification, and I'll ask you if you recognize
15 it?
16 A Yes. This is the CAT scan of Theresa
17 Schiavo dated May 9, 1996 done at Northside
18 Hospital.
19 MS. FELOS: Thank you. Ms. Campbell, I
20 don't have copies of this. Your Honor, if I might
21 offer this into evidence and we will use it.
22 THE COURT: Is there an objection?
23 MS. CAMPBELL: No.
24 THE COURT: Now your series of
25 affidavits was admitted as Exhibit Number Four.
134
1 Do you want me to remark this as five?
2 MS. FELOS: As Exhibit Number Five.
3 Thank you, judge.
4 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 5 WAS
5 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
6 THE COURT: This goes in here, so I can
7 mark the outside?
8 MS. FELOS: Yes. I put stickers on
9 both, so as not to get confused.
10 Q (By Ms. Felos) Dr. Barnhill, we have
11 some audiovisual, attempt at least to look at this
12 under, with the use of this audiovisual
13 equipment. So I will ask, if you would like to
14 come down here and take a look at this. Begin at
15 least to look at this. And if you could explain a
16 little bit about this and then -- actually, judge,
17 we probably ought to also offer this.
18 THE COURT: Can you see?
19 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes.
20 MS. FELOS: Judge, we also have another
21 CAT scan. This CAT scan is Dr. Barnhill's CAT
22 scan.
23 Q (By Ms. Felos) Dr. Barnhill, I'll show
24 you what is marked as Petitioner's Exhibit Number
25 Six and this is A, B, and C, and ask you if you
135
1 recognize it.
2 A That is my CAT scan, CAT scan of my
3 brain, done in March of 1988. It's presumably
4 normal.
5 MS. FELOS: I'll show it to opposing
6 counsel.
7 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
8 MS. FELOS: Do you have the envelope?
9 THE COURT: Is there an objection to
10 coming in as Petitioner's Six?
11 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
12 MS. FELOS: I marked them A, B, and C to
13 try to make sense out of them.
14 THE COURT: Since the reporter is not
15 doing this with a camera, I am assuming the one on
16 the left, is that yours?
17 THE WITNESS: This one on my left -- on
18 your left is the patient, Ms. Schiavo.
19 THE COURT: The one on the right is you?
20 THE WITNESS: The one on the right is
21 me.
22 THE COURT: So let us, when we are -
23 referencing one or the other, let's say left or
24 right and that way the transcript will pick up
25 exactly what- you----are- talking about.
136
1 THE WITNESS: Yes sir.
2 THE COURT: Thank you.
3 (THEREUPON, PETITIONER'S EXHIBIT 6 WAS
4 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
5 Q (By Ms. Felos) Dr. Barnhill, we have
6 two screens set up here. The one on the left is
7 the CAT scan of Theresa Schiavo; is that correct?
8 A Yes.
9 Q That was done in May of 1996?
10 A Right. ' 96.
11 Q The one on the right is a CAT scan of
12 your brain and you stated that you believe that is
13 a CAT scan of a normal brain?
14 A Yes.
15 Q I also note here, and it is a little
16 difficult to see, so it may be helpful if you can
17 point out the areas that don't show up extremely
18 well on the screen.
19 A Can I just --
20 Q Please. If you would.
21 A What I'm trying to show is my normal CAT
22 scan which is just, for people that are not used
23 to looking at these, what you would expect to
24 see. The way these images are taken is a machine,
25 a computer, basically takes slices through the
137
1 head which are as if you were to cut the head, say
2 front to back, look inside, and then take a series
3 of slices up and down.
4 So on my CAT scan, this one is higher
5 than this one, and this is only part of the study
6 of mine. There is three separate pieces of film
7 that go from above to below. On the patient, the
8 one on the left, all of the images are on the same
9 piece of film, but the same principle applies.
10 I'm trying to communicate that you have to look at
11 the same comparable slice to get some idea what
12 structures you are looking at.
13 This one in the center, right here, of
14 mine on the right shows basically a white circle,
15 which is my skull. In the very center of this is
16 a black, almost looks like a butterfly. Those are
17 called the ventricles. Those are normal fluid
18 filled spaces inside the brain. There is a little
19 white dot in the middle, which is a little calcium
20 deposit in my pineal gland. That occurs in normal
21 people. It serves as a reference, a landmark, so
you kind of know where you are. It should be in
23 the middle. It should be right about there.
24 What is notable about this normal is
25 that these, this little butterfly area, is small.
138
1 It does not take up very much of this space inside
2 my skull. And the rest of the inside of my skull
3 is filled with tissue, which is brain.
4 This is an old CAT scan. We have better
5 ones now, but even in an old CAT scan you can
6 appreciate that there is a lot of tissue between
7 the butterfly and the edge of the skull. So there
8 is a lot of brain tissue in there, which is the
9 way it should be.
10 I'm going to pick a comparable level, if
11 I can find her pineal gland. I'm looking at the
12 patient's scan on the left. Her pineal gland was
13 not calcified, but roughly on the same level, I'm
14 now pointing at on the lower left of this screen
15 you can again see a butterfly, but it is a huge
16 butterfly. What that is, the ventricles, which
17 are these normal fluid filled spaces, have become
18 very large. And you see next to the butterfly,
19 you see some kind of grayish white stuff. Then
20 you see a lot black on either side. That black
21 area is spinal fluid where there used to be brain.
22 The reason that the butterfly, the
23 ventricle, is so large and there is so much black
24 stuff on the edges underneath the surface of the
25 skull is that area used to be occupied by brain
139
1 and no longer is. It is now occupied by spinal
2 fluid because the brain tissue died at the time of
3 the cardiac arrest and lack of oxygen that
4 occurred at that time back in 1990.
5 There is very little inside this skull
6 other than spinal fluid. There is spinal fluid in
7 the center on the ventricles. There is spinal
8 fluid on the edges where the cortex, where the
9 brain matter has been damaged, and there are sort
10 of ribbons of brain tissue between there. That
11 brain tissue that's in there is undoubtedly
12 scarred and damaged and does not work, based on
13 the clinical examination; based on the presence,
14 for example, of these release reflexes is not
15 working normal.
16 In fact, in my opinion, you could not
17 have this scan, this appearance of a scan, and
18 have anything other than a persistent vegetative
19 state. Now you don't make that diagnosis on the
20 scan alone. You make it in conjunction with the
21 history and the physical findings and you have to
22 put all three together. This scan supports the
23 clinical findings of a patient who has only reflex
24 behavior and no awareness, therefore, no
25 consciousness.
140
1 Q Thank you. I am having a difficult time
2 seeing the ventricles in this one here. Can we
3 just switch this? If I can't see it, I doubt the
4 judge can.
5 A The projector on the left now has my
6 brain, which is a better projector, I guess. One
7 of the reasons you have trouble seeing it is
8 because there is not very much of the black in the
9 center, the butterfly, and that's the way it
10 should be.
11 Q Maybe you can outline what the normal
12 brain would look like with respect to the
13 ventricles.
14 A These little areas here. Then on the
15 sides, there would be little tiny extensions. At
16 a higher level, you might get this level, you can
17 see that there is a pattern where there is fluid
18 in here. That is comparable to -- the patient's
19 scan, angled the way the cuts were taken, was
20 different, so I don't have exactly a comparable
21 one, but I think you can see that this one is
22 close.
23 Q So this is approximately the same angle
24 as we see in --
25 A It's a different angle, but it's about
141
1 the same level. The angle would be if you cut
2 this way versus this way, you would get different
3 things. But there is a tremendous -- I mean, my
4 ventricles are 10 percent the size of her
5 ventricles.
6 Q You are saying that the significance of
7 that -- say that again.
8 A My ventricles are about a tenth of the
9 size of hers.
10 Q So the ventricles of the normal brain
11 are approximately a tenth of the size of the
12 ventricles in this CAT scan, which is Theresa
13 Schiavo's?
14 A I think that would be a rough estimate.
15 Yes.
16 Q And the significance of that is the
17 ventricles are filled with fluid or the area where
18 the ventricles used to occupy? Could you explain
19 that?
20 A The significance of it is that before
21 what happened to her, there was brain tissue
22 there. The brain tissue died. Nature will not
23 permit a vacuum in that area where brain used to
24 be and it died and is now filled up with spinal
2S fluid.
142
1 Q The result of that filling up with
2 spinal fluid is, the result of that in the
3 clinical examination of the patient, is what?
4 A It's not really a result. This is the
5 effect. The effect of severe brain damage is that
6 spinal fluid has accumulated and made these
7 ventricles so large. The significance of having
8 spinal fluid in there is simply that is the
9 physiological response. When you have a space, it
10 has to be filled with something.
11 The significance of showing this CAT
12 scan patient's versus mine is there is almost no
13 brain tissue in here. In her's. What is in the
14 skull, there is tissue inside the skull, and there
15 are content tissues. The contents in her skull
16 are mostly spinal fluid.
17 Q What did you say about scar tissue
18 again?
19 A What is known from survivors, well, from
20 autopsy cases of people who have had cardiac
21 arrests and survived for a period of time and then
22 died, if you look at the residual brain tissue
23 that's inside, what you basically see are a few
24 scattered areas and a few nerve cells amidst
25 fields of scar tissue. The nerve cells, some may
143
1 be there, but they are trapped in scar. They
2 can't talk to their neighbors. They can't
3 communicate with other parts of the brain, which
4 is part of this immigration process that is
5 necessary, it is believed, to generate
0 consciousness.
7 Q So in other words, what cells are there,
8 this is what you meant by connectedness? You
9 mentioned the term connected. Connected to what?
10 It sounds like that's what you are explaining.
11 A They are disconnected. There are cells
12 in there, I have no doubt, but I think the cells
13 in there are not connected to each other in a way
14 they can integrate data, which is what the brain
15 does to generate consciousness.
16 Q All right. Is there anything else you
17 want to show us with respect to this, the
18 comparison of these CAT scans, that would be
19 helpful?
20 A I would answer questions.
21 Q All right. Dr. Barnhill, these tests on
22 Theresa Schiavo were done about 3-and-a-half, 4
23 years ago. Do you think it would be necessary to
24 have them done again? To review them again?
25 A NO.
144
1 Q Why do you say that?
2 A They can't get better. This is
3 irreversible. It is known that this type of
4 injury never gets better. You really would not
5 learn anything by doing these scans. There might
6 be circumstances wherein a patient like this, you
7 would want to do another scan if they fell and hit
8 their head and you would now want to find out if
9 bleeding occurred in there.
10 But there really would be no, on a
11 routine, assuming nothing like that happened, on a
12 routine basis there would be nothing you would
13 learn.
14 Q So brain tissue does not regenerate?
15 A Not when it's damaged to this degree.
16 Q Now in your affidavit of May 1st you
17 stated that Theresa Schiavo's condition is
18 terminal. You examined her on, I believe the 19th
19 of January. Has your opinion regarding her
20 terminal condition changed?
21 A No. It has not.
22 Q Now how did you arrive at your opinion?
23 Again, I might have asked you this before, but how
24 did you arrive at your opinion that she's
25 terminal?
145
1 She has a medical condition arising from
2 illness or injury which is irreversible and will
3 lead to her death. Treatment is not contingent
4 and the only treatment being provided is, I'm not
5 sure it's the only treatment, but the life
6 sustaining treatment being provided here is a
7 feeding tube.
8 Q So but for the feeding tube, Theresa
9 Schiavo would die?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Is there any treatment whatsoever,
12 whether it be medical, surgical, anything that can
13 reverse the brain damage that Theresa has
14 sustained?
15 A No.
16 Q Is there anything that would allow her
17 to be not in a vegetative, persistent vegetative
18 state or terminal?
19 A I understand they tried some
20 experimental stimulator that they put in there a
21 couple of years afterwards. I can understand that
22 is a grasping at straws thing and that did not
23 work. There is nothing known to science that will
24 help this.
25 Q Thank you. Now, you have a considerable
146
1 amount of experience with removal of feeding tubes
2 in vegetative or comatose patients; don't you?
3 A Probably more with not putting them in
4 in the first place, but also some removing them.
5 Q Can you tell us a little bit about
6 this? Your experience with respect to this?
7 A During the course of my practice as a
8 general neurologist in a community hospital, I
9 probably see several times a month, at least in
10 the winter when it is really busy, patients who
11 have severe strokes; cerebral hemorrhages;
12 ruptured aneurysms; sometimes head injuries;
13 sometimes they have Alzheimer's disease and then
14 have some other thing happen to them and they are
15 in a position where they are unable to swallow.
16 They are unable to maintain, be maintained without
17 resorting to artificial nutrition and hydration.
18 So very commonly, once a week at least,
19 I'm in a situation where that decision comes up.
20 What we basically go on is the guideline from the
21 family hopefully conveying to us what the patient
22 would want under those circumstances. So the
23 decision that is discussed is whether or not it
24 would be advisable to sustain the patient with a
25 feeding tube.
147
1 And this is in the acute phase, but you
2 can tell in the acute phase largely based on the
3 clinical history, what happens in the first few
4 days, and what the scan shows that the outcome is
5 likely to be a persistent vegetative state.
6 Q With respect to, go into what happens
7 when the feeding tube, say, is removed or
8 artificial feeding is not induced and the patient
9 is dying. Do you have some experience with that
10 dying process?
11 A I do.
12 Q How does it happen?
13 A I used to see this more. Current
14 restrictions on being in a hospital, and this
15 happens mostly at nursing homes now. Patients are
16 not allowed to die in hospitals. Not considered
17 sick enough. But the ones I have been involved
18 with, where the patient was under my direct care
19 and supervision during the hospitalization, and
20 there have been several, the usual scenario is the
21 patient is either in a comma or a situation where
22 they are starting to become sort of-this
23 sleep/wake cycle return. Some periods of apparent
24 alertness, or arousal, or wakefulness but without
25 evidence of awareness_
148
1 Basically it is a process that takes a
2 week or two weeks sometimes. My observation has
3 been that the patient just sort of slips away.
4 Just sort of eases out. There has not, I have
5 never seen descriptions of an agony type of a
6 process. What tends to happen physiologically is
7 that the dehydration, lack of water, produces a
8 concentration of sodium, which as that goes up,
9 and also other chemicals in the blood, the patient
10 becomes more and more sleepy or unconscious. If
11 they are unconscious already, it's kind of hard to
12 tell that. If there were brief periods of
13 apparent wakefulness, those become less. Go away.
14 Ultimately, in most cases probably what
15 happens is, the potassium level in the blood goes
16 high enough that the heart stops. The heart will
17 stop in response to a high a potassium. I
18 hesitate to say it is a peaceful death, but I will
19 say that it is pretty unremarkable.
20 Q All right. Thank you. Now you have
21 reviewed the records of the nursing home. You
22 have your opinion, and your opinion is that
23 Theresa Schiavo has a complete lack of cognition.
24 And have you found that opinion is consistent with
25 other neurologists' opinions that you have
149
1 reviewed, if you have?
2 A I have found that. On the chart this
3 last visit last week that I made, there was an
4 assessment by Dr. Karp, who is a neurologist, who
5 essentially reported the same thing. There was
6 also another neurologist, Dr. DeSousa, who had
7 seen her, I believe in 1 96, who concluded the same
8 thing.
9 From a documentation standpoint, the
10 chart lists among diagnoses chronic vegetative
11 state. That is basically what is all over the
12 chart from the medical providers.
13 Q Thank you. You said you also reviewed
14 the EEG?
15 A Yes. I did.
16 Q And those findings were consistent with
17 your diagnosis? Anything remarkable there?
18 A The EEG, let me just say, is a
19 sensitive, but not specific test. What it
20 measures is electrical activity originating within
21 the first few centimeters underneath the skull.
22 This EEG is very abnormal. The EEG shows low
23 amplitude or small waves that are very slow. This
24 is the kind of pattern you would expect to see in
25 severe brain damage.
150
1 The EEG was probably done, and was
2 useful primarily, in that it did not show seizure
3 activity. Seizure activity is something you would
4 want to put the patient on medication for. Also,
5 if someone is having seizure activity, on the EEG
6 you can’t really judge the consciousness of that
7 patient because the seizure activity itself may be
8 the cause of lack of awareness or lack of
9 consciousness.
10 Q And you did not find that here on this
11 EEG?
12 A No. There was no seizure.
13 Q Low amplitude and slow waves --
14 A Right.
15 Q Which is consistent with the brain
16 damage that you found on the CAT scan and clinical
17 examination; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Now there have been, through the
20 depositions actually in this case and some of the
21 other things that have been already mentioned
22 here, that Theresa Schiavo moves her head, arms,
23 and legs. How would you equate that, that kind of
24 movement, with the diagnosis you made here in your
25 opinion?
151
1 A She has reflex behaviors. Reflex
2 actions that imply her spinal cord and lower brain
3 stem are intact. Breathing is a good example.
4 She breathes. If she had damage to her brain
5 stem, lower brain stem, she would not breathe.
6 Breathing is a reflex activity. Normal people
7 have conscious control, to some extent, over it.
8 It happens whether or not you think about it.
9 Everything that I saw in my examination
10 of her, everything that I have seen described on
11 the chart, is consistent with reflex activity.
12 Activity that occurs without awareness of it
13 occurring.
14 Q I remember Mike Schiavo mentioned that
15 sometimes Theresa moans or has a sound like
16 moaning. How would you rectify that? How would
17 that fit with your diagnosis?
18 A Reflex activity. The generators for
19 moaning basically are the vocal cords and upper
20 airway. Those structures are innervated through
21 the lower brain stem. Moaning is a manifestation
22 of the fact that those structures are intact.
23 That is all. It does not mean anything else.
24 Q What about things like shifts in facial
25 expressions? You can call them whatever you
152
1 want. Smiling. I don't know that you have to
2 call it that, but shifts in movement of the face?
3 A Same thing. One of the tests I do on a
4 comatose patient to assess structural integrity of
5 the brain stem is I will inflict pain to see if
6 there is movement of the facial muscles. It is
7 called a grimace response. That when a patient is
8 in a comma and they are clearly unconscious by
9 anybody's criteria, yet they move their face in
10 response to stimulation.
11 Q What is that?
12 A It is a reflex. Just as if I tap on the
13 knee and the leg moves. If you apply a stimulus,
14 then you will get some sort of response. The way
15 reflexes work is the stimulus is conveyed into
16 part of the brain processed at, I'll say in the
17 spinal cord or brain stem, and it generates a
18 response by another nerve. All of that happens
19 below the level of awareness.
20 Q What about response to sound? Someone
21 might say that Theresa may turn her head. Is
22 there a reflex with respect to, with respect to
23 sound?
24 A There is.
25 Q Tell us about that.
153
1 A It is called orientation reflex. Again,
2 sound, whether it be a human voice or whatever,
3 the origin of the sound is transduced into the
4 brain stem via the eardrum. The auditory nerve
5 into the brain stem where there is processing.
6 Depending on the nature of the sound, various
7 pathways go up or down to trigger various
8 reflexes.
9 Everybody here undoubtedly, at some
10 point or another, has been startled by a loud
11 sound. You are aware after you were startled and
12 you jerked, but you were not aware of it at the
13 time you were startled. The awareness comes on
14 afterwards. So the point being is a reflex can be
15 triggered by sound and you have no awareness of
16 that happening until it has happened.
17 Q Did you find that in Theresa Schiavo?
18 A She did startle. So she has in fact
19 sound processing circuitry in her brain stem.
20 That was an important thing, too, when you examine
21 someone and you go in and talk to them to make
22 sure they are not deaf.
23 So that is one of the first things I do
24 when I examine somebody is make sure that the
25 hearing mechanism works. And the way to do that
154
1 is look for a startle reflex.
2 Q I see. So that is called a startle
3 reflex?
4 A Right.
5 Q What about eyes? Seeing? Can Theresa
6 Schiavo see?
7 A I have got two different results on
8 that. I don't think that she sees with
9 comprehension. I think she has intact reflexes.
10 The pupils will react. When I saw her last week,
11 she no longer was blinking to threat, which means
12 you give a visual threat. What I do is I flick my
13 fingers in front of the patient's eye. Look for a
14 blink.
15 She did do that when I saw her the first
16 time. I am not sure what it means. It's probably
17 not good, in terms of level of function, to not
18 blink to threat as compared to blinking to threat,
19 but it really does not make much difference. If
20 she blinks to threat, is it again a reflex
21 activity which is processed.
22 The anatomy is pretty well worked out.
23 It is processed well, well below the level of
24 brain structures not to be necessary for
25 consciousness.
155
1 Q So there may be further deterioration
2 that has occurred in the last few years and would
3 that be in the brain stem or is that just
4 insignificant?
5 A I think it is probably more incidental
6 and not really significant to me.
7 Q So is Theresa Schiavo blind in that
8 case?
9 A Well, if I went back three times over
10 the course of a week, and maybe for some reason I
11 got a blink to threat one time and not another,
12 but I could convince myself there was a blink to
13 threat, is she blind? Well, yes and no. I will
14 give you an example. There is a known syndrome
15 where people have strokes which involve both
16 occipital lobes where visual processing occurs.
17 They can see, but they are blind.
18 Everything works, but once the
19 information goes back there -- and she has the
20 same kind of damage -- it can't be processed. But
21 there are people who have strictly that. Who can
22 walk around things without seeing them. If you
23 ask them what they see, they don't see anything
24 but they walk around the post. It's in the brain
25 stem.
156
1 Are they blind in the sense they can't
2 tell you anything? Yes. Can they act in the
3 environment purposefully? Are they blind in that
4 sense? No. She is not able to process any visual
5 information, based on lack of any other evidence
6 that she can and based on the appearance of the
7 CAT scan, except at a reflex level.
8 Q Could she follow something with her
9 eyes?
10 A She did not.
11 Q Did not?
12 A Right.
13 Q Now what about something like laughing
14 or crying? Is there anything that might explain
15 something like that?
16 A Yes. There is. It is again -- and I
17 sound like a broken record -- reflex behavior.
18 There are many well documented cases of
19 disassociation between emotional behavior and
20 emotional feeling in people with brain damage. It
21 kind of goes like this. There are states called
22 pathologic laughter or crying, which generally are
23 seen in people who had disconnections between
24 parts of the brain that process consciously and
25 parts of the brain that generate activities such
157
1 as laughing or crying.
2 Those activities are generated again at
3 low brain stem or upper brain stem levels. So a
4 person in this state who might be fully conscious
5 and can talk to you might cry or laugh and you ask
6 them if -- are you sad? Are you happy? Do you
7 feel the way you are behaving? And they will say
8 no. I'm crying, but I don't feel sad. I feel
9 absolutely fine.
10 I have seen it. This is unquestionably
11 something that happens. The implication in this
12 case is any activity that is seen in this case has
13 to be disconnected from any feeling based on the
14 appearance of all the other exams, the presence of
15 the release phenomena, the appearance of the CAT
16 scan, and such severe damage.
17 Q Now if it were reported that Theresa
18 Schiavo changed her facial expression in response
19 to say a comment by someone about a TV program or
20 something like that, let's say a relative, someone
21 in her family, what would you -- how would you
22 respond to something like that?
23 A Well --
24 Q In your experience with many of these
25 cases.
158
1 A I think my experience has been in many
2 cases that people tend to see or interpret things
3 based on their own expectations and beliefs and
4 wants. If you want to see it, you are more likely
5 to see it. I don't think this is conscious. I
6 think it is perhaps some sort of defense mechanism
7 to help deal with the reality of the situation.
8 I see this all the time in the Intensive
9 Care Unit when someone has an acute massive brain
10 injury and the spouse, the children, somebody will
11 say you know, they mumbled. Or I said their name
12 and they answered. I'll do an exam on that
13 patient and that patient is in a deep comma.
14 Or they will misinterpret things. Such
15 as, I put my hand in his hand and he squeezed my
16 hand because I told him I'm here. Well, that is a
17 release reflex. That is a phenomena that would
18 occur no matter what. You could put a stick in
19 the hand, anybody's hand, and that will happen.
20 So it is not -- I think it is a perceptual
21 phenomena. I don't think that is what's
22 happening. I think it's related to the perception
23 of the viewer.
24 Q So you would say that Theresa Schiavo is
25 not aware of the presence of others, nor does she
159
1 act in any voluntary way, or have cognitive
2 behavior? Would that be a correct statement?
3 A Yes.
4 MS. FELOS: I have no further questions
5 at this time, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell.
7 CROSS-EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
9 Q Good afternoon, Dr. Barnhill. My name
10 is Pam Campbell. I am an attorney representing
11 Mr. And Mrs. Schindler in this case. Have you had
12 the opportunity to meet Mr. and Mrs. Schindler,
13 the parents of Theresa Schiavo?
14 A I have not.
15 Q You were talking about the general
16 statistics of the patients that you primarily deal
17 with. How old are those patients generally?
18 A The average patient is probably in their
19 seventies, but in terms of this type of thing, I
20 see patients anywhere probably from about 20 to
21 100.
22 Q You said that you considered the wishes
23 that you believed to be the patient's. What has
24 been explained to you would be the wishes of
25 Theresa Schiavo?
160
1 A I don't think that has been explained to
2 me at all.
3 Q Are you familiar with what the parents
4 have expressed their wishes that they believe
5 Theresa's wishes are?
6 A I don't think explicitly, I conclude,
7 since we are having this trial, that they probably
8 want the tube continued.
9 Q But you have not been explained that one
10 way or the other?
11 A Not explicitly.
12 Q When you say that you reviewed the
13 different records, the chart of Theresa Schiavo,
14 did you review the different nursing records?
15 Notes, specifically?
16 A I always look at nursing notes. That is
17 your main source of information. Yes.
18 Q How far back would you have gone in
19 reviewing the nursing notes?
20 A I'm not sure if I wrote it down. When
21 the patient has been in a facility for many years,
22 they tend to thin these out and put them somewhere
23 else and there is a certain current amount. I did
24 review a minimal data set dated February 11,
25 1998. I can't tell you how far back. I'm
161
1 guessing those notes go back six months to a year,
2 if that.
3 Q On the note of February 11, 1998, were
4 you referring to the DNR order? That specific
5 notation in the note?
6 A I don't have that written down. I think
7 what I noted was the MDS, which is a form
8 completed by the nursing staff that sort of
9 outlines the functional status of the patient.
10 That was, I believe dated February 11, 1998, that
11 she was described as comatose and totally
12 dependent.
13 Q Have you ever seen Theresa Schiavo with
14 her mother, Mrs. Schindler?
15 A No.
16 Q In reviewing some of the nursing notes,
17 if I can read a couple of them to you and get your
18 reaction. A nursing note dated February 26,
19 1997. Some staff believes that she --
20 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, if she is
21 referring to a specific document, I would like to
22 have a copy. I don't know if you intend to
23 introduce them into evidence. I know they are not
24 on your document list.
25 MS CAMPBELL: No. I do not intend to
162
1 admit them into evidence. These are records that
2 Mr. Felos provided to me. I am asking for his
3 reaction based on these notes.
4 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, if counsel is
5 going to read from the nursing notes and they are
6 not going into evidence, I would object on that
7 basis.
8 THE COURT: Well, I think an expert can
9 rely on matters that are not in evidence, but the
10 fact that he might rely on them does not make them
11 admissible. So we either need to have them
12 identified, marked, or -- you can't admit them on
13 cross, obviously. I don't think you can just read
14 from something and have them be admitted.
15 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor.
16 Q (By Ms. Campbell) If routinely in the
17 nursing notes it referred to the patient laughing,
18 for example in response to someone telling a joke,
19 how would you consider that with your previous
20 testimony?
21 A Well, again, laughter can occur as a
22 reflex activity. My belief would be, unless I saw
23 consistently with my own eyes that that was, that
24 the laughter occurred, but if in fact it occurred
25 in response to that stimulus that would imply a
163
1 degree of cortical integration, that I don't
2 believe this patient has.
3 If I can demonstrate that for myself, I
4 would not be able to say that she met the criteria
5 for persistent vegetative state. Would I accept
6 that observation from someone else? No. Because
7 there is so much other evidence and I have seen
8 for myself what this patient looks like. It has
9 to be borne in mind that there is reflex activity.
10 There are actually people in vegetative
11 states that are capable of intermittent what we
12 believe to be cortically brain based functions,
13 such as saying words. Higher brain based. How
14 can a person say a word being in a vegetative
15 state? The answer appears to be there is a little
16 island of cells that can do that. Trigger a
17 mechanism to say a word. Can that imply awareness
18 in the framework to imply awareness? The answer
19 is no. There is too much damage in that patient.
20 So, I mean, you are kind of asking me
21 what do I think if she laughs in response to a
22 joke, if that is true, she's apparently aware and
23 therefore conscious. Do I believe that is true?
24 No.
2S Q Did you tell Mrs. Schiavo a joke?
164
1 A I did not.
2 Q Did you talk to her in any meaningful
3 way? Calling out her name, asking for or seeking
4 any kind of response from her?
5 A I did.
6 Q Were her eyes open when you called her
7 name?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did she appear to look at you?
10 A No.
11 Q If you heard testimony that a particular
12 person, her mother, came on a regular basis and
13 she would routinely laugh and/or cry in response
14 to the mother's voice, how would you square that
15 with your previous testimony?
16 A Again behavior, laughter behavior,
17 crying behavior, is observable behavior which I
18 believe is a reflex that is induced by a
19 stimulus. The stimulus might be the mother's
20 voice. It might not be. Exhibiting the behavior
21 does not imply there is awareness of the behavior
22 in a patient who is quadraplegic, whose arms are
23 drawn up, who is in a state of total inability to
24 communicate. Does not respond in any way to
25 directed questions. Can't hear anything.
165
1 It is inconsistent. It has to be a
2 reflex behavior. I do not believe that type of
3 behavior constitutes proof that there is
4 awareness, I guess is my response.
5 Q If you witnessed that as a pattern on a
6 regular basis, weekly basis, the same voices
7 providing the stimulus for the laughter, and add
8 to that relaxed, hand relaxes, what would your
9 reaction be to that?
10 A If I witnessed it. If there is some
11 kind of consciousness present.
12 Q Thank you. Now in your prior testimony
13 you talked about the definition of terminal which
14 the definition in the statute says under Chapter
15 765 paren 15. Terminal condition means a
16 condition caused by injury, disease, or illness
17 from which there is no reasonable probability of
18 recovery and which without treatment can be
19 expected to cause death. Are you defining without
20 treatment the removal of the feeding tube?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Are you aware of any other kind of
23 treatment that is being provided to Mrs. Schiavo
24 that would expect death or cause death to occur?
25 A The time I saw her last week she was on
166
1 some various medications, but these are more
2 comfort measures. They are not life sustaining
3 kind of measures. I think that, and I'm not
4 positive about this, that she has been on
5 antibiotics periodically for infections, and if
6 those treatments were stopped -- in other words,
7 if she got pneumonia and was not given
8 antibiotics, that would be life threatening.
9 Q Why do you consider feeding, the
10 artificial nutrition and hydration, treatment
11 instead of care and comport?
12 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. That
13 is a legal matter determined by the Florida
14 Supreme Court to be medical treatment, therefore
15 the question is irrelevant.
16 THE COURT: Counsel?
17 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe he has
18 testified earlier about the guidelines from
19 his, The American -- I don't know the exact
20 name -- but the American guidelines he was
21 referring to previously that they were more
22 stringent than the Florida Statutes. I can reword
23 my question to say from his particular guidelines,
24 if there were any medical reason.
25 THE COURT: Well, the courts have
167
1 already ruled that the feeding tube is a medical
2 treatment. I'm not sure what his agreeing with
3 the court or disagreeing with the court would have
4 to do with deciding. How would it be relevant?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Because he stated his
6 opinion as a medical physician. So if -- and
7 his -- in his statement of consulting physician he
8 has said that she is terminal, which in going over
9 the definition of terminal, it refers to what I
10 just said as far as without treatment.
11 THE COURT: In that treatment I'll
12 allow.
13 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
14 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Dr. Barnhill, let me
15 rephrase the question. In your experience as a
16 physician, and referring back to the guidelines,
17 is it the belief of the American Board of
18 Psychiatry and Neurology that, and they are the
19 ones that issue the guidelines, are there
20 guidelines specifically pertaining to artificial
21 nutrition or hydration being considered care
22 and/or treatment or comfort?
23 A I think you are referring to the
24 American Academy of Neurology?
25 Q Yes.
168
1 A In this particular position paper I have
2 with me, here is what they say. I'll quote them.
3 Physicians and the family must determine
4 appropriate levels of treatment relative to the
5 administration or withdrawl [sic] of, number one,
6 medications. Number two, supplemental oxygen,
7 antibiotics. Three, complex organ sustaining
8 treatment such as dialysis. Four, administration
9 of blood products. Five, artificial hydration and
10 nutrition.
11 Once persistent vegetative state is
12 considered permanent, a "do not resuscitate" order
13 is appropriate. What they basically are saying is
14 it is a treatment and its provision or withholding
15 of is a decision that has to be made by the
16 physicians and family. I'm not sure I answered
17 your question.
18 Q So they combine feeding and nutrition,
19 hydration and nutrition, with all the other life
20 support type measures?
21 A Yes. They do.
22 Q Are you familiar with Dr. Hoshibushi
23 (phonetic) and his treatment of Theresa Schiavo?
24 A physician from the University of California in
25 San Francisco that implanted the electrodes?
169
1 A The only thing I know is that it was
2 done, or I can see on the scan there is a thing in
3 there, some kind of metal, that is presumably the
4 result of that procedure.
5 Q So you can see them on the CAT scan?
6 That was the next question.
7 A Yes.
8 Q The CAT scan that you reviewed was from
9 1996. Did you review prior CAT scans?
10 A I did not.
11 Q Doctor, are you aware of any prior CAT
12 scans?
13 A I remember reading in the records that
14 there had been, but I never saw them or I don't
15 think I saw reports either. It would not change
16 anything.
17 Q It would not change anything meaning
18 your opinion of how she is currently?
19 A It would not change anything in the way
20 she is currently.
21 Q Do you know one way or the other
22 whether the implants that were implanted into
23 Theresa Schiavo, whether they were beneficial one
24 way or the other from any tests or reports that
25 you reviewed in her medical records?
170
1 A There is nothing in the records, but I'm
2 not sure what the goal of that treatment was. But
3 I have seen her twice, and if the goal was to make
4 her in some way conscious, it did not work.
5 Q Would you consider Theresa Schiavo to be
6 brain dead?
7 A No.
8 Q Why not?
9 A Brain death is a medical/legal term,
10 more legal than medical, that implies irreversible
11 loss of brain function, including the brain stem.
12 And she has multiple brain stem functions intact.
13 Q You testified earlier regarding the
14 disconnect from the feeling versus the emotional
15 level in response to laughter. How would you know
16 for certain that there was a complete disconnect
17 of the feeling versus the emotional level, for
18 example, in laughter?
19 A I can't know for certain.
20 Q So it would be possible that she would
21 have some feeling level there if there was
22 demonstrated a pattern of repeated laughter of a
23 specific stimulus?
24 A It's possible.
25 MS. CAMPBELL: No further questions.
171
1 Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Redirect?
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. FELOS:
5 Q Dr. Barnhill, tell us about the tests
6 that you performed in a clinical examination of
7 Theresa Schiavo and other patients who are in
8 persistent vegetative states.
9 A I can sort of go through what I did.
10 It's pretty much the same both times. First part,
11 you know, I go in the room. I look. I see before
12 me and make certain observations visually. The
13 patient was lying in bed. Head and eyes up to the
14 right. Head is extended back. Her limbs, her
15 upper limbs were in flexion. Contractures,
16 meaning they are drawn up against her chest and
17 her hands are pulled down. Her legs are stiff and
18 extended. Her feet are pushed, like the toes are
19 pushed down. That is a typical posture for
20 someone who has had a severe brain -- upper motor
21 neuron posture.
22 Q Say that again?
23 A Upper motor neuron posture. It is the
24 typical pattern of muscle tone that develops after
25 severe brain injury. Sometimes in spinal card
172
1 high spinal cord as well, but central nervous
2 system injury. Then I perceived this patient
3 appeared to be aware: Not aware. Alert, Awake:
4 Not aware. Eyes are open. Then I called her
5 name. No response. I then made a loud hand clap
6 to assure myself that hearing was intact. There
7 was a startle reflex.
8 Q What kind of startle reflex was it? A
9 blinking of the eye?
10 A I think a blink, and it might have been
11 a visible startle. I can't remember exactly. But
12 there was clearly, in my mind, a response to a
13 loud noise. I then tested to see if there was any
14 response to visual threat or tracking. I flicked
15 my fingers in front of the eyes to see if there
16 was anything there. Moved my hand around. I take
17 a penlight out of my pocket and move it around to
18 see if there was tracking. There was not. Her
19 eyes would move about seemingly at random. Those
20 are calling roving extra ocular movements.
21 Q Say that again?
22 A Roving extra ocular movements. People's
23 eyes just sort of roll around. I could not get
24 myself to -- upon asking or telling the patient
25 move your eyes to the right, left, up -- get
173
1 anything that was a response to that.
2 There was some moaning both times. I
3 think actually the first time I saw her she was
4 sitting up in her chair. I don't know what that
5 has to do with it, but I just flashed on that
6 visual image.
7 In response to my attempting to turn the
8 head out of this contractured position to the
9 right to see if I could get her eyes to move in a
10 certain way, that is all I got from there. She
11 had release phenomena. Release reflexes as I
12 talked about. She had a suck reflex. If you
13 put -- what I used was a cotton tip applicator
14 against her lips and they would purse out. She
15 would try to suck that.
16 She had a root reflex, which is the same
17 thing a baby will do if you stroke the check. It
18 orients as if seeking the nipple. She had no
19 reflexes to tapping on tendons. A manisfestation [sic]
20 of being contractured into this position for so
21 many years. I spent a lot of time throughout the
22 course of checking, say limb reflexes, talking to
23 her. Trying to get her to orient to me, respond
24 to me in some way. Stick out your tongue. Move
25 your eyes. Show me your teeth. Turn your head.
174
1 There was no response.
2 Q Did you try to put your -- you mentioned
3 before about putting your finger in her hand?
4 A I tried. Her hands are so tightly
5 contractured that to open them up, to do that
6 would be painful, if she can perceive pain. But I
7 can pretty well tell you that if you have seen
8 anybody with a stroke whose arms looked like that
9 and I tried to do it, it hurts. So I did not get
10 my fingers in there. Her hands were already
11 grasping.
12 Q A lot of what has been mentioned here
13 has to do with patterns of behavior. I think I
14 heard you say, well, if there is a specific
15 pattern of behavior in response to specific
16 stimuli, then you would consider there could be
17 consciousness. Let me read to you from a
18 deposition. This is a deposition taken of Mary
19 Schindler on August 12, 1999. Page 41, Line 8.
20 And this is a question about some sort of action
21 on behalf of Theresa. Her response is: Sometimes
22 she'll turn her head and look right at me.
23 Now here she says "sometimes", which
24 would indicate this is not a pattern of behavior.
25 Would her statement of "sometimes she'll turn her
175
1 head" be consistent with your current opinion and
2 diagnosis?
3 A Sure. Sure. She will turn her head
4 sometimes.
5 Q Now if Mary Schindler were to say she
6 looked right at me sometimes, would that be
7 consistent with your opinion?
8 Sure. The eyes move. The head moves.
9 At some point they are going to settle on some
10 particular place.
11 MS. FELOS: I have no further questions
12 THE COURT: Anything further?
13 MS. CAMPBELL: Nothing further.
14 THE COURT: Is this witness under
15 subpoena?
16 MS. FELOS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Has he completed his
18 testimony or do we need to retain him?
19 MS. FELOS: I don't think we do.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: No.
21 THE COURT: Thank you very much, doctor.
22 You are released from your subpoena.
23
24
25
176
1 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 PROBATE DIVISION
CASE NO. 90-2908-GD3
3
4 IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF
THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
5
Incapacitated.
6
7 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, AS GUARDIAN OF THE
PERSON OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
8
Petitioner,
9 APPEAL
vs.
10
ROBERT SCHINDLER AND MARY SCHINDLER,
11
Respondents.
12
13 BEFORE: GEORGE W. GREER
Circuit Court Judge
14
PLACE: Clearwater Courthouse
15 Clearwater, FL 33756
16 DATE: January 24, 2000
17 TIME: 3:00 p.m.
18 REPORTED BY: Beth Ann Erickson, RPR
Court Reporter
19 Notary Public
20
TRIAL
21
22
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
23 501 South Fort Harrison
Clearwater, Florida 33756
24 (813) 464-4858
Volume II Pages 176-324
25
copy
177
1 APPEARANCES:
GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
640 Douglas Avenue
Dunedin, FL 34698
4
Attorneys for Petitioner
5
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
6 The Alexander Building
535 Central Avenue
7 Suite 403
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
8
Attorney for Respondents
9
10 INDEX
Page
11
WITNESS
12
FATHER GERARD MURPHY
13 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 178
Voir Dire Examination by Ms. Campbell 185
14 Direct Examination Continued 187
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 203
15 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 218
Recross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 223
16
JOAN SCHIAVO
17 Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 224
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 237
i8 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 244
19 VINCENT GAMBONE, MD
Direct Examination by Mr. Felos 246
20 Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 260
Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 275
21
BEVERLY TYLER
22 Direct Examination by Mr. Fe-Los 281
Cross-Examination by Ms. Campbell 307
23 Redirect Examination by Mr. Felos 319
24 Petitioner Rests 323
25
178
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 MR. FELOS: Call Father Murphy.
3 THE BAILIFF: Stand here, raise your
4 right hand to take the oath.
5 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
6 THE COURT.)
7 DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. FELOS:
9 Q State your full name, please.
10 A Gerard Murphy.
11 Q Father Murphy, are you an ordained
12 priest in any particular faith?
13 A Yes. Roman Catholic.
14 Q To what work are you assigned in the
15 church at this time?
16 A At present, I am the pastor of St. Ann's
17 Church, Ridge Manner, in Hernando County.
18 Q Can you tell us about St. Ann's parish?
19 A Very small. A country parish. About
20 400 families. Mostly elderly. People are sick.
21 On the edge of life.
22 Q Father Murphy, can you please tell us
23 your educational and clerical background?
24 A Well, I graduated from college, seminary
25 college. Then went to graduate school. Four
179
1 years of theology. Also graduated with six units
2 of clinical pastoral education, which is an
3 international movement of supervised pastors
4 ministry. Each unit was 400 hours of supervised
5 ministry in the health care setting. So I
6 achieved 2400 hours of intensive supervised
7 training.
8 Q What degree did you obtain in graduate
9 school?
10 A Masters of Divinity.
11 Q Your undergraduate degree was in?
12 A Bachelors of Philosophy.
13 Q Father Murphy, when were you ordained?
14 A 1979. May.
15 Q I'd like you to describe for us,
16 chronologically, your work in the church since
17 that time.
18 A Okay. The first eight years I was an
19 assistant pastor at Most Holy Name in Gulfport
20 Florida. From there I went for a year to Bayfront
21 Medical Center, actually St. Mary's in downtown
22 St. Pete, to be the Catholic chaplain at Bayfront
23 Medical Center. I went back to Most Holy Name for
24 a year-and-a-half, two years. Then I was employed
25 by Sarasota Memorial Hospital as a Catholic
180
1 chaplain for three years. Back to St. Petersburg
2 as Director of Pastoral Care at St. Anthony's.
3 And several more years as assistant pastor helping
4 out in parishes throughout the dioceses where
5 needed. And three years in my present assignment
6 as pastor.
7 Q Let's talk first about, it was Holy Name
8 parish in Gulfport?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You were there about eight years?
11 A Eight years.
12 Q Please describe the nature of your
13 clerical work there.
14 A Ninety percent of my parish work was at
15 the hospital. Palms of Pasadena is small, but
16 very active. Virtually all the census was
17 Catholic. Ninety percent of my time was there.
18 Q With your work at Palms of Pasadena
19 while at Most Holy Name parish, did you have the
20 opportunity to work with families and counsel
21 families who were faced with end of life care and
22 medical treatment decisions?
23 A Definitely.
24 Q Removal of life support decisions?
25 A Definitely.
181
1 Q I believe you mentioned that during that
2 period you were the chaplain at Bayfront Medical
3 Center?
4 A I was assigned to St. Mary's Catholic
5 church downtown, but I covered Bayfront for them.
6 Q Please describe your duties as chaplain
7 at Bayfront.
8 A Well, you know, certainly it's
9 administration of the sacrament, but a much larger
10 role than that today. Simply because there are so
11 many questions, moral questions. It is not as
12 easy to die as it used to be. So there are an
13 awful lot of questions that come up. It is a
14 matter of helping families work their way through
15 it.
16 Q How many families would you say you
17 counseled and worked with in that area when you
18 were chaplain at Bayfront?
19 A At Bayfront for that year, a hundred
20 probably.
21 Q And before at Most Holy Name parish, how
22 many?
23 A Hundreds.
24 Q I believe you mentioned that after,
25 after your service at Most Holy Name parish, you
182
1 were the Catholic chaplain at Sarasota Memorial
2 Hospital?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And how long?
5 A Just under three years.
6 Q Tell us about the nature of your duties
7 at Sarasota Memorial Hospital as chaplain.
8 A Same as at the previous hospital.
9 However, this time I was employed by the hospital,
10 so my time was exclusively theirs. At Sarasota, I
11 was co-chairman of the Violation Commission and
12 virtually all my work was in bioethical
13 consultations with families and physicians.
14 Q Please describe the workings of the
15 Bioethics Committee at
16 A A large group of people from all the
17 disciplines in the hospital. Social workers.
18 Physicians. Attorneys. Risk management.
19 Everyone who has any input into the hospital
20 system. And presenting from that large group was
21 a small group that made consultations. So if
22 there was a family that had a problem, a physician
23 that had a problem, or nurse, they had access to
24 the consultation.
25 They would call us, and then a
183
1 representative group of us would meet with them,
2 everyone, and try to resolve the situation.
3 Q Is it fair to say that the situations
4 where cases were presented to the Bioethics
5 Committee regarding removal of life support were
6 the tough cases?
7 A Sure. By all means.
8 Q After Sarasota Memorial, I believe you
9 mentioned you were the Director of Pastoral Care
10 at St. Anthony's Hospital?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Is that a religious -- does St.
13 Anthony's have a religious affiliation?
14 A It's run by Franciscan Sisters of
15 Albany.
16 Q Is that a Catholic hospital?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How about Sarasota Memorial?
19 A No. County.
20 Q Please tell us your duties as Director
21 of Pastoral Care at St. Anthony's
22 A It was more administration, although I
23 did keep my hands in ethics. I was the co-founder
24 of their first bioethics committee. It was just
25 starting. It was getting it off the ground,
184
1 rather than real well organized like
2 Q Father Murphy, is it possible for you to
3 tell us on how many occasions you have rendered
4 pastoral clinical care regarding the subject of
5 life care?
6 A Over the course of my priesthood?
7 Q Yes.
8 A I would say hundreds.
9 Q Father Murphy, have you done any
10 research or writing regarding the opinions of the
11 Catholic church as it concerns end of life care
12 and treatment issues? The religious and moral
13 implications of that?
14 A Yes. I do quite a bit of writing and
15 publishing. I have written a series of pamphlets.
16 I have published articles in clerical journals.
17 Mostly because of my desire to educate. I find
18 that most people have no idea what the Catholic
19 church teaches. Even Catholics. And I think that
20 is gives rise to grave misunderstandings and I
21 have real fears about that.
22 So I have taken to writing and public
23 speaking about it. We give talks around the
24 dioceses. I take that very seriously and I do
25 quite a bit of that.
185
1 Q You mentioned you had written a number
2 of pamphlets on this subject. Are they used and
3 distributed to any particular audiences or groups?
4 A Sure. Everywhere I can. I sent one,
5 two of them, to a priest in one of the magazines I
6 publish in frequently. He put a thing in his
7 column. So I was deluged all over the country,
8 but mostly in the State of Florida we distribute
9 them to parishes wherever we can. Hospitals.
10 Q Is the distribution of those pamphlets
11 authorized by the church authorities?
12 A Yes.
13 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, at this time we
14 offer Father Murphy as an expert in the area of
15 the Catholic church's position on end of life care
16 and treatment issues and clinical counseling on
17 end of life care and treatment issues.
18 THE COURT: Do you wish to voir dire?
19 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. I do. Thank you.
20 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
22 Q Father Murphy, which diocese are you
23 with?
24 A I am secular as opposed to being a
25 Jesuit or Dominican or Franciscan, which follow
186
1 the rule of that particular saint. I was just
2 ordained to a diocese and obey a bishop.
3 Q You said you went to four years of
4 theology. Where was that?
5 A Seminary of
6 Beach.
7 Q Do you have any education as a medical
8 ethicist?
9 A No. Not formal training.
10 Q Do you have any education as a moral
11 theologist [sic]?
12 A From my training, I mean seminary
13 training, sure. We take courses in that.
14 Q So that would be included in the four
15 years of theology?
16 A Yes, ma'am.
17 Are you considered a moral theologian?
18 A It depends in whose eyes. I'm the one
19 they call in the diocese of
20 they have questions.
21 Q Do you function in any official capacity
22 to the diocese?
23 A Yes. The diocese chaplain for the
24 Catholic Medical Association. The statewide
25 chaplain for the Catholic Medical Association. I
187
1 am a member of Dioceses and Task Force in assisted
2 suicide. Formerly certified as a national
3 chaplain. I let my membership lapse.
4 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no objection.
5 Thank you.
6 THE COURT: Thank you. Proceed,
7 Mr. Felos.
8 Q (By Mr. Felos) Father, in the Catholic
9 church, do papal teachings or pronouncements hold
10 primacy as compared to the teachings and
11 pronouncements of bishops or cardinals?
12 A Yes. The pope sets the tone.
13 Q Are there any papal pronouncements or
14 teachings in the area on use or removal of
15 artificial life support?
16 A In 1953, Pope Pius the IV met with a
17 group of physicians who considered those questions
18 in conference. Pius was almost prophetic in
19 foreseeing what would happen fifty -- forty years
20 later. The teaching that he taught was that
21 Catholics are mortally bound to respect life and
22 to care for life, but not at all costs.
23 He introduced the concept of extordinary [sic]
24 versus ordinary means. A Catholic is mortally
25 bound to take advantage of ordinary,
188
1 proportionate or disproportionate.
2 Q Has the phraseology proportionate or
3 disproportionate, as opposed to ordinary, been
4 explored more prevalent in the Catholic church as
5 of late?
6 A Yes. Sure. Because of the problem it
7 is not as easy to die as it used to be. Nature
8 would have taken care of a great many situations
9 30 or 40 years ago. My belief in the health care
10 system is that technology is a two-edged sword.
11 The wonderful technology meant to heal and save
12 people and get them back on the road can also
13 interfere with nature.
14 Q What factors does the Catholic church
15 take into consideration in determining whether a
16 treatment is an ordinary action as opposed to
17 extraordinary or proportionate as opposed to
18 disproportionate?
19 A It's not the procedure. Its the
20 perception of the patient. Is the procedure, is
21. it too emotionally draining? Is it too
22 psychologically repugnant? It is too expensive?
23 Does it offer no hope of treatment -- of recovery
24 or little or no hope? Based upon all those
25 factors, then you make your moral decision based
189
1 upon those issues.
2 Q So as I understand it, the standard by
3 which those moral criteria are examined is the
4 subjective standard of the patient?
5 A Yes.
6 Q In some of the literature I've read,
7 I've come across the terms burdensome and
8 useless. That is, a Catholic is not required to
9 have a medical treatment if it is burdensome or
10 useless. How do those concepts fit in with the
11 ones with what you just mentioned?
12 A Maybe if I gave an example it might be
13 easier. You look like kind of a healthy guy. Say
14 you caught pneumonia this flu season. You go to
15 your doctor. He would prescribe a course of
16 antibiotics for you. You would be better soon and
17 back on the road.
18 But as a case I actually handled in
19 Bayfront, St. Petersburg, many years ago, a woman
20 in her late seventies was filled with cancer in
21 the bronchial tree. She was dying. She came down
22 with that pneumonia and the daughter insisted that
23 the mother be treated for that pneumonia. I said
24 why are you doing this? What do you hope to
25 accomplish?
190
What you always have to do is weigh the
2 proportion. What do you hope to accomplish
3 against what it is going to take to get there. In
4 that case, all she was doing was keeping the
5 mother alive for an extra three or four weeks in
6 order to die. So that was clearly a case of
7 prolonging the inevitable, as opposed to someone
8 like you who comes down with that pneumonia.
9 Q Does the church then permit the
10 consideration of whether or not the patient has
11 any hope of recovery in whether the treatment may
12 help the patient recover in considering whether it
13 is ordinary or extraordinary?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Let's take a case that medical treatment
16 or artificial life support may be medically
17 beneficial. If artificial life support may be
18 medically beneficial, if the patient deemed it too
19 psychologically or emotionally burdensome for
20 himself or herself, could such a patient refuse
21 artificial life support and still be in compliance
22 with the church's teachings?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Father Murphy, what materials did you
25 review in preparation for your testimony in this
191
1 case?
2 A The depostions [sic] of the family. The
3 depositions of the -- the deposition of the
4 husband. I'm not sure about that. I'm not sure.
5 I know I reviewed the family and the report of the
6 physicians.
7 Q I want you to assume, Father Murphy, for
8 purposes of this question that Theresa Schiavo
9 told her husband that if she were dependent on the
10 care of others she would not want to live like
11 that. And also Theresa Schiavo mentioned to her
12 husband and to her brother and sister-in-law that
13 she would not want to be kept alive artificially.
14 Assuming that information to be correct,
15 Father, would the removal of Theresa Schiavo's
16 feeding tube be consistent or inconsistent with
17 the position of the Catholic church?
18 A After all that has transpired, I
19 believe, yes, it would be consistent with the
20 teaching of the Catholic church.
21 Q How would you define, Father Murphy, a
22 practicing Catholic?
23 A Off, that's a tough one.
24 Q Let me rephrase it. Does the church
25 have any particular definition of what a
192
1 practicing Catholic is?
2 A Certainly. We have what we call Easter
3 duty, which means sometime from Lent to Trinity
4 Sunday, in that three or four month window, a
5 Catholic is required to receive holy communion.
6 If necessary, confession. Catholics are mortally
7 bound to assist at mass. Attend mass every
8 Sunday. Every holy day of obligation. Certainly
9 those are all criteria for a practicing Catholic.
10 Q If Theresa Schiavo had not taken
11 communion over a two year period before her
12 medical incident and not participated in
13 confession, would she be considered by the church
14 to be a practicing Catholic?
15 A Not according to the criteria. No.
16 Practicing, no.
17 Q Now Father Murphy, if a patient is in a
18 permanent vegetataive [sic] condition, maintained by
19 artificial life support, and the patient's intent
20 is not known, can a loved one who has the best
21 interests of the patient at heart authorize
22 removal of artificial life support consistent with
23 church teachings?
24 A I think in a case like this where so
25 much time and effort has elapsed, I think, yes, it
193
1 would be consistent. You have to remember, the
2 church will always uphold the ideal. One of the
3 things they will do is hit the brakes, as it were,
4 to make sure nobody is rushing into judgment.
5 Trying to push the patient out of the picture.
6 In view of the length and effort here, I
7 would say yes. What you would hope for is
8 somebody who cared about the best interest of the
9 patient to make the decision for them.
10 Q And such a decision by that -- a
11 decision to remove the feeding tube by such a
12 person would be consistent with the church
13 teachings?
14 A I believe so, from my understanding of
15 the church teachings.
16 Q You mentioned you reviewed the
17 depositions of Theresa's parents and siblings?
18 A Yes.
19 Q I want to ask you some questions about
20 those.
21 A Yes.
22 Q There are statements by Mr. and Mrs.
23 Schindler and their siblings that if they were in
24 a permanent vegetative or unconscious state, with
25 no hope of recovery, that they would want all
194
1 medical treatments and procedures to keep them
2 alive. Do you recall those statements in the
3 depositions you read?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Is that the position of the Catholic
6 church?
7 A Well, they would certainly be able --
8 certainly be permitted to do that.
9 Q Um-hmm.
10 A The church would not tell them what they
11 should do, only what they may do. If that is
12 their wish, then that would certainly be
13 permissible.
14 Q But does the Catholic church require,
15 require someone to have all medical treatments and
16 procedures to keep them alive?
17 A No. In fact, Pope Pius said that in
18 1953. It was a direct quote. He said that kind
19 of suffering may be admirable, but certainly not
20 required.
21 Q In fact, even if a patient is not
22 vegetative, does the Catholic church require all
23 medical treatments to keep the patient alive?
24 A No.
25 Q There were also statements in the
195
1 deposition also to the effect -- and these are
2 statements by the mother and the brother and
3 sister -- that if they were in that permanent
4 unconscious statement with no hope of recovery and
5 had gangrene and their limbs had to be amputated
6 that they would choose that rather than to die.
7 Do you recall reading that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Does the Catholic church require any
10 11 12 by a person like that?
13 14 Q In all your years of pastoral clinical
15 counseling, Father Murphy, have you ever come
16 across such extreme opinions?
17 A With all due respect, no.
18 Q Have you, from your pastoral clinical
19 experience, have you come across any dynamic which
20 would explain such a viewpoint?
21 A I think grief is a large part of it.
22 And I think there is a healthy versus unhealthy
23 grieving process. I think everybody goes through
24 it in a different way and at a different time
25 speed. There is no set time frame, I think, for
196
1 grief.
2 I was just reminiscing yesterday about
3 my own grief for my mother. I concluded it just
4 two weeks ago. When I was ordained, I bought
5 myself this ring, or a copy of the original, which
6 is envisioned as a commitment to Christ. Kind of
7 like my wedding ring for the church.
8 When my mother died a year-and-a-half
9 ago, I put it on her finger in the casket and wore
10 her anniversary ring from my father. About two
11 weeks ago, it was time to let go. I got this copy
12 and put her ring away. I think that is an example
13 of the grieving process.
14 I knew of a little old lady in Sarasota,
15 after 60 or 70 years of marriage, every night she
16 set a place at the table for her deceased husband,
17 and eventually stopped about a year later. I
18 think that is a healthy kind of grieving. But the
19 other side is not being able to let go at all. I
20 think that is very problematic.
21 Q In the Catholic faith, is death
22 something that a practicing Catholic need fear?
23 A No. No. In fact, that is a fundamental
24 part of the Catholic faith. We call ourselves a
25 pilgrim people. Life here on earth is really seen
197
1 as a temporary stay. Catholics believe that our
2 destiny is Heaven. Therefore, you can't do
3 everything to prevent yourself from getting
4 there.
5 What is so hard to deal with in
6 educating Catholics in these issues is that death
7 1 is a part of life. It is a part of life. It's
8 part of the process. No, Catholics should not
9 fear death.
10 Q There was a statement in Mrs.
11 Schindler's deposition that, in addition to
12 wanting every type of medical treatment to
13 preserve herself in a permanent unconscious state,
14 should hypothetically she be in that state, that
15 she would, if medical treatment impoverished her
16 family, that she would still want that treatment.
17 Is there any recognition in the Catholic
18 faith in this area about the cost of treatment?
19 Is the cost of treatment ever a factor?
20 A That's one of the criteria in deciding
21 whether it's proportionate or disproportionate.
22 Excessive or ordinary. What you would hope is
23 that somebody is helping the patient work through
24 those issues. That, you know, maybe you need to
25 rethink that. You know, that again, the church
198
1 would not tell them what to do, but you know, a
2 good bioethical consult or caring pastor I think
3 would help somebody like that say, you know, maybe
4 we need to take another look at this. You know,
5 talk a little bit more.
6 Q So hypothetically, if a patient had a
7 choice whether to receive a treatment or not, and
8 the treatment let's say, let's say that offered no
9 hope of recovery and the patient decided not to
10 have it because they didn't want to place a
11 financial burden on their family, would such a
12 decision by the patient be consistent with
13 Catholic teachings?
14 A Absolutely.
15 Q Now in the deposition of Theresa's
16 siblings, do you recall there was discussion of
17 God's will?
18 A Um-hmm.
19 Q I believe there were a number of
20 statements. Well, Terri ought to remain alive
21 because -- she should be treated -- she should
22 have all type of medical treatment to keep her
23 alive because it's God's will. If it was God's
24 will that she die, she would be dead with medical
25 treatment in place. Is such a position consistent
199
1 with Catholic teaching?
2 A No. I don't think so. I'll tell you
3 why. When I mentioned the two-edged sword, God's
4 will could have been easily done fifty years ago.
5 I think this is a case where the wonderful
6 technology, rather than being an act of health and
7 recovery, has become the obstacle for nature
8 taking its course. I think it's a good example.
9 You know, there's also the case of my
10 father. My father, I found him crying in his bed
11 one day. He was dying of cancer and it was hard
12 to tell which was worse, getting up and going for
13 chemo or the cancer. He wanted to know if it
14 would be a sin if he stopped going to chemo. I
15 said of course not. He did stop and he died
16 peacefully thereafter.
17 I said there is another example of where
18 chemo does wonderful things for people, or it can,
19 but what is the good that you hope to achieve?
20 For my father, it was only prolonging the
21 inevitable. He was not going to get better. So
22 in that case, the chemotherapy which was meant to
23 be the agent of health, became the obstacle.
24 Q Father Murphy, I'd like to read you a
25 portion from Mary Schindler's deposition of August
200
1 12, 1999. This is Page 39, Line 16.
2 Question. Well, in your mind, does
3 there come a point in time when the experience of
4 discomfort or pain on the part of the patient
5 becomes a factor in deciding whether to remove
6 life support?
7 Answer. No.
8 Under Catholic, under the teachings of
9 the Catholic church, is the pain or discomfort of
10 the patient, that the patient might feel, is that
11 a valid factor to be considered --
12 A Yes.
13 Q -- in determining whether care is
14 ordinary or extraordinary?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How does that become a factor?
17 A As you know, Catholics have an
18 understanding of suffering as being redemptive.
19 You know, Mother Theresa of Calcutta always said
20 that. Certainly suffering had a higher redemptive
21 value, but certainly you are not bound to take all
22 the suffering that comes your way. That is --
23 that was my father's case. My father basically
24 arrived at the notion that enough is enough. All
25 we are doing is prolonging the inevitable.
201
1 Q Father Murphy, there was a section in
2 the depositions of Mr. and Mrs. Schindler read in
3 court already. You may remember them. Mr. and
4 Mrs. Schindler were basically asked, just
5 hypothetically, assume these were Terri's wishes.
6 That she did not want to be kept alive
7 artificially and that she did not want to be kept
8 alive if she were a burden to others. Would that
9 change your position in this case?
10 They both answered no.
11 My question is, is disregarding the
12 intent of the patient consistent at all with
13 Catholic teachings?
14 A No. It is the perception of the patient
15 that determines the morality of the action. Not
16 the family, not the doctor, but the perception of
17 the patient.
18 Q In Terri's sister's deposition, she
19 made the statement that taking away life support
20 is murder. Is that the position of the Catholic
21 church?
22 A Absolutely not. My father's case again.
23 There are still people telling me that my father
24 killed himself. Absolutely not true. Absolutely
25 inconsistent with church teaching. All they do is
202
1 allow nature to take its course.
2 Q I believe the sister also made the
3 statement in her deposition that a patient may
4 have medical treatment, even if it's against his
5 or her will, if it can keep the patient alive.
6 A Absolutely not.
7 Q Do you recall in the deposition of
8 Theresa's brother his testimony that he believes
9 his parents or his parents believe, Mr. and Mrs.
10 Schindler, that Terri is aware of their presence,
11 and he testified that Terri's continued life is a
12 joy to him? A joy to him and his family to keep
13 Terri alive in this condition?
14 He was even asked -- he was even asked
15 if Terri needed -- if Terri needed a respirator to
16 keep her alive, would it still give you joy to
17 have her alive on a respirator? And he said yes.
18 He was asked if her limb had to be
19 amputated, would it give you joy to have her alive
20 in this condition? And he said yes.
21 My question is, Father, what are the
22 teachings of the Catholic church regarding keeping
23 a loved one alive for your own personal pleasure
24 or benefit?
25 A I think that is contrary to the gospel.
203
1 We all take pleasure in relationships with people,
2 family. People who get married. I think, you
3 know, keeping someone around strictly for your own
4 pleasure strikes me as very anti-gospal [sic]. Sounds
5 more like using someone than loving someone.
6 MR. FELOS: I have no other questions.
7 Thank you, father.
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
10 Q Good afternoon. My name is Pam
11
12 Have you had the opportunity to meet Mr. and Mrs.
13 Schindler?
14 A No. I regret that. I wish I were their
15 pastor.
16 Q Have you had the opportunity to meet
17 Theresa Schiavo in this case?
18 A No.
19 Q When you say you reviewed the
20 depositions of the family, who were -- whose
21 depositions were you specifically referring to?
22 A I remember Mr. and Mrs. Schindler. I
23 remember a woman named Carr. And a brother.
24 Q The woman named Carr, Suzanne Carr, the
25 sister?
204
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you review any medical records of
3 Theresa Schiavo?
4 A I read a summary of the physician who
5 went and reviewed the case.
6 Q Do you recall the name of the physician?
7 A Karp.
8 Q Dr. Karp? K-a-r-p?
9 A As I recall, that is him.
10 Q It was about three pages long?
11 A Yes.
12 Q How did you get personally involved in
13 end of life issues?
14 A That's a long story. I discovered early
15 on in the priesthood, for me it was kind of a
16 loveless marriage until I started visiting
17 hospitals and taking care of the sick and dying.
18 For me that resonated deeply. I was very, very
19 sick as a child. Almost died as a child. So I
20 felt a natural inclination -- empathy, not
21 inclination -- for people in those circumstances.
22 So that really set the tone for my
23 priesthood. And more and more in recent years, my
24 interest has been fueled by what I see are very
25 dark horizons in health care and the necessity to
205
1 help families get through.
2 Q Can you be more specific in what you
3 mean, dark horizons?
4 A Yes. I think that Catholics
5 particularly make no distinction between allowing
6 yourself to die from an illness and actively
7 killing yourself. That is why there are people to
8 this day that think my father killed himself by
9 removing chemotherapy. I think that is a
10 tremendous factor.
11 And I think when assisted suicide passes
12 in the State of Florida, as I believe it will,
13 that they will not have to market it because the
14 people I know, and I think with due respect, the
15 reason I found this such an unusual situation is
16 that virtually everyone I know is terrified of a
17 case like this. That is why I believe they would
18 line up to take a pill or shot and go to sleep.
19 My mother's death is a perfect example.
20 She was a good Catholic. I think if she had a
21 chance to review her last week on earth, I'm not
22 so sure if she would have taken a pill and wanted
23 to go to sleep. That is what I mean by dark
24 horizons that fuel my attention.
25 I have stepped up my writing, works,
206
1 publishing, with the medical association to try to
2 educate clearly what is morally necessary.
3 Q Do you support, personally, physician
4 assisted suicide?
5 A Absolutely not.
6 Q Do you think that the church's teachings
7 would be in support of physician assisted suicide?
8 A Absolutely not.
9 Q What would be the church's position on
10 euthanasia?
11 A Absolutely not.
12 Q Suicide?
13 A Absolutely not, except that what the
14 church would recognize is that a person who
15 commits suicide is very likely in a diminished
16 capacity, so in terms of judging the morality of
17 their action, they would not be held morally
18 accountable. In order to sin, you have to clearly
19 want to do it and have the competence to be able
20 to sin.
21 Q And the church, they have a position
22 against abortion?
23 A Definitely.
24 Q You stated earlier that many Catholics
25 1 are confused as to what the church's position
207
1 would be?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Is it understandable to you why that
4 would occur when the church's position on
5 euthanasia, suicide, and abortion is such a pro
6 life stance? Do you understand my question?
7 A Um, that is a good question. Yeah. I'd
8 say so, but I would think that the average,
9 elderly Catholic is used to a Catholicism that
10 tells them exactly what to do. I'd say you are
11 probably right. There is merit in your question.
12 Q Would it be your understanding that
13 probably, in general, practicing Catholics would
14 believe that it would be the church's position to
15 support artificial feeding, hydration, nutrition?
16 That the church's position would be to support
17 that?
18 A Probably. Just like my family, father,
19 asked me if stopping chemo would be a sin.
20 Q Your father was Catholic?
21 A Irish-.
22 Q Have you ever had your deposition taken?
23 A No, ma'am.
24 Q In reading through the deposition of Mr.
25 and Mrs. Schindler--and Terri's siblings, could you
208
1 get the sense of the room in the deposition when
2 you were reading through those?
3 A A little bit.
4 Q Could you get the feel of the emotions
5 past the black and white page?
6 A A little bit.
7 Q Could you sense that perhaps the people
8 that were being deposed felt they were being
9 backed into a corner?
10 A I don't think so. That was not my
11 sense. Do you want to know how I felt?
12 Q Yes.
13 A The sense that I felt more was great
14 empathy. Not just because I'm a good pastor, but
15 I watched my parents bury two of their own
16 children. I know it destroyed them. My mother
17 never got over it. My father did. They were an
18 interesting case in grief.
19 So my heart, without knowing them, my
20 heart goes out to the Schindlers because this must
21 be killing them. But, you know, it was awful for
22 me to be a son and yet very good for me to be a
23 son to my parents to help them work through it. I
24 don't think most people have that. They have to
25 rely on what they hear on radio or see on
209
1 television or something.
2 Q In weighing the benefits and burdens of
3 a position in making a determination with a
4 family, you talked about cost --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- being a factor. Are you aware of the
7 financial circumstances of this particular case?
8 A Not really. That there is money
9 involved. I don't recall dollars. Amounts.
10 Q Is it your impression that cost is a
11 factor here? The cost of her care being a benefit
12 or burden?
13 A Yes. But I think that would be my own
14 surmise. Knowing what health care cost in
15 general, years and years of health care must be
16 astronomical, I would think. That is just a hunch
17 on my part.
18 Q You have not reviewed her medical
19 records to have assessments of her medical costs?
20 A No.
21 Q To your knowledge, has Theresa Schiavo's
22 condition been evaluated by any bioethics
23 committee?
24 A No. Not to my knowledge. That is, I
25 think, probably a flaw in this case. It would
210
1 have been great if they had.
2 Q Generally, had she been at St.
3 Anthony's, for example, and this case was
4 presented through, would that have gone through
5 the Bioethics Committee?
6 A You see, someone will have to call for
7 it. Whether it is a family member -- I assume,
8 given the dynamics of the situation, I assume one
9 of them or the physician would have said could we
10 sit down. Yes. It would have happened.
11 Q Are you aware whether or not there is a
12 bioethics committee at Palm Garden in Largo?
13 A I have no idea. I don't even know where
14 that is.
15 Q Generally, when this comes up in a
16 hospital setting, in a Catholic hospital setting,
17 does it not go through a committee?
18 A Yes. You would not have seen that five
19 or ten years ago. Nowadays, I assume it's almost
20 automatic.
21 Q So a number of people would be reviewing
22 the benefits and burdens of Theresa Schiavo's
23 personal case?
24 A Yes.
25 1 Q Have you discussed this case with other
211
1 Catholic colleagues of yours in the medical ethics
2 area?
3 A Yes. Two of them that we work together
4 on doing consultations in the diocese. I
5 discussed in general the situation with the two of
6 them.
7 Q But you have never talked to the
8 Schindlers to receive their input?
9 A No.
10 Q In a committee setting, when a true
11 committee would have been formed to review Theresa
12 Schiavo's circumstances, would the husband's
13 feelings have been taken into consideration?
14 A Everyone's feelings would have to be
15 taken into consideration. That is one of the
16 goals of the ethics connotation is to try to get
17 everybody moving at the same pace.
18 Q So in this case, have you had the
19 benefit of any of the other family's --
20 A No.
21 Q thoughts on this?
22 A No. If I recall, Mr. Felos told me that
23 I was contacted by somebody in the family and I'm
24 sure I told him whatever -- because I get calls
25 all the time -- and I'm sure I told him what I
212
1 tell everybody. You have my home phone number.
2 Private number. Cell number. I would be happy to
3 sit down with you and the family. Call.
4 Q Do you recall maybe being contacted by a
5 Richard Pearse of the guardian ad litem?
6 A I think that is the name.
7 Q Probably it was Mr. Pearse and not one
8 of the Schindlers?
9 A Okay. I'm sorry.
10 Q Would that be your recollection?
11 A I recognize the name Pearse.
12 Q He was the guardian ad litem appointed
13 in this case.
14 A Okay.
15 Q Are you familiar with the ethical and
16 religious directives of Catholic Health Care
17 Services published by the National Conference of
18 Catholic Biships [sic]?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q What would be your general thoughts
21 concerning that publication?
22 A I think it's the teaching of the church.
23 What the bishops teach.
24 Q Are you familiar with the specific
25 1 detectives under issues for care and issues and
213
1 care for the dying?
2 A Yes, ma'am.
3 Q Would you specifically be familiar with
4 number 58?
5 A No.
6 Q If I read that to you, would you tell
7 me -- I would like to read that for you and tell
8 me if that is within your same mind set. The
9 directive 58 says there should be a presumption --
10 MR. FELOS: Excuse me. If she is going
11 to be reading from a source like that, does
12 counsel have additional copies so that I can
13 follow it and perhaps Father Murphy as well?
14 MS. CAMPBELL: I do not have additional
15 copies. I would be glad to let Mr. Felos look
16 over my shoulder.
17 THE COURT: Very well.
18 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Number 58 says there
19 should be a presumption in favor of providing
20 nutrition and hydration to all patients, including
21 patients who require medically assisted nutrition
22 and hydration, as long as this is of sufficient
23 benefit that outweighs the burdens involved to the
24 patient. Does that sound familiar?
25 A Yes.
214
1 Q How would you square that directive with
2 your earlier testimony concerning Theresa Schiavo?
3 A As I think I said earlier, the church
4 will always take the high road. They will always
5 uphold the ideal. They will always resist
6 immediate action. I think they always want to
7 slow down, take advantage of every possible
8 opportunity, to make sure that the outcome is not
9 promising.
10 So even Cardinal Bernadine, who taught
11 us so much about how to die well, that was one of
12 his most forceful arguments is that artificial
13 hydration and nutrition is not mandatory in every
14 single case. You have to go back and evaluate the
15 proportion. Where are you going? What do you
16 hope to achieve against what is it going to take
17 to get there? What is the outcome that you are
18 looking for?
19 Q Have you ever worked with one of the
20 patients in many of the hundreds of families that
21 you worked with that have received, or believed
22 they have received, a miracle from God?
23 A Sure. My father.
24 Q Would they, would that involve
25 continuation of life?
215
1 A Um-hmm. Yes.
2 Q In this case, if you witnessed Theresa
3 Schiavo with her mother and there was an
4 outpouring of love between the two of them, would
5 that be something that would be a factor in your
6 consideration of whether or not it would be
7 acceptable to withdraw a feeding tube?
8 MR. FELOS: I object to that question
9 for lack of foundation. I heard no testimony -- I
10 deposed Mrs. Schindler. She has taken no
11 depositions. I don't recall any testimony of an
12 outpouring of love from Theresa. I would object
13 on lack of foundation to that question.
14 THE COURT: I certainly have heard
15 enough.
16 MS. CAMPBELL: I'll rephrase.
17 Q (By Ms. Campbell) If you witnessed
18 Mrs. Schindler, Theresa's mother, with Theresa and
19 watched her laughter, her smiling, on a, say a
20 regular basis whenever Mrs. Schindler would visit,
21 is that something you would consider?
22 A I would consider it.
23 Q How would that -- would that change your
24 opinion in this case?
25 A It could.
216
1 Q Could you elaborate on how you think
2 that could?
3 A Well, what I would look for is the
4 lesson that one of the chiefs of intensive care at
5 All Children's told me. He said, Father, you
6 divide up the brain. There is a part of the brain
7 that is who the person was. Then there is a part
8 of the brain what the person was. Who the person
9 was is gone and they are not coming back. But
10 what the person was is still functioning.
11 So he described for me local stimuli.
12 Things that appear to be cognizance, appear to be
13 awareness. Again, I'm not a physician. I would
14 want to talk to the physician about that. So I
15 would give you a cautious yes, I could consider
16 it.
17 Q But you would consider the physician's
18 input?
19 A Well, that is his expertise. That is
20 not mine.
21 Q Do you think that would do anything with
22 any teaching of perhaps God's will and for a
23 miracle?
24 A I don't mean this as flip as it sounds.
25 If God is going to work a miracle, he does not
217
1 need machinery or technology. I think he will
2 just do it. So I have never been persuaded by the
3 argument that we have to keep all the machinery
4 going so God can work his miracle. I don't
5 believe God needs that.
6 Q Do you think there is a timetable that
7 God expects you to consider one way or the other?
8 A No. I mean in terms of, I don't think
9 it's six months or a year or whatever. But I
10 think that when it becomes a long, long time, I
11 think a good pastor would have to sit down with
12 the principals involved and say maybe, maybe it's
13 time to let go.
14 Q This would be a pastor that probably
15 worked with the family?
16 A Yes. Sure.
17 Q It would be a pastor maybe that had
18 witnessed any type of relationship between the
19 incapacitated, or ward, and the people that are
20 asking for the feeding tube to be maintained?
21 A Sure.
22 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no further
23 questions.
24 THE COURT: Redirect?
25 MR. FELOS: Yes, Your Honor.
218
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. FELOS:
3 Q In the portion of the ethical and
4 religious directives which was read to you by
5 opposing counsel, Father, it does state that
6 providing nutrition and hydration is conditioned
7 by the phrase "as long as this is of sufficient
8 benefit to outweigh the burdens to the patient."
9 That gets back to the factors we talked about on
10 direct examination; doesn't it?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Those factors are looked at in the mind
13 of the patient?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Let's assume again that Theresa Schiavo
16 expressed an intent not to be kept alive
17 artificially. Does the fact that her mother
18 derives joy from being with Theresa, does that
19 negate Theresa's intent?
20 A No.
21 Q Let's even assume for purposes of this
22 question that Theresa does smile and laugh and her
23 mother derives joy from that. Does that negate
24 Theresa's intent?
25 A No.
219
1 Q As to Theresa and whether this continued
2 life maintained artificially is burdensome, that
3 was for Theresa to decide, not her mother; isn't
4 that correct?
5 A Yes.
6 Q You were asked the question whether you
7 talked to Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?
8 A Yes
9 Q Did you talk to Mr. Schiavo?
10 A No.
11 Q There was -- you mentioned Mother
12 Theresa, by the way. Did you ever work in any of
13 Mother Theresa's centers?
14 A Yes. I tried to volunteer as much as I
15 could up at the Washington -- in Washington, DC.
16 It's an AIDS Hospice right near Catholic U. I go
17 there a couple times a year.
18 Q What type of work do you do there?
19 A Just loving the patients. Watching the
20 nuns. They have taught me so much about the care
21 of the dying. You don't see any machinery there.
22 All you see is the nuns bathing these old people.
23 Just loving them.
24 Q Have you ever participated in any
25 patient care yourself?
220
1 A Sure. I never forget them. While
2 talking about them, I was in DC last week. A
3 black man dying of AIDS named Willie, I held
4 Willie in my arms after I baptized him. One of
5 the little nuns took a spoonful of Ensure. Took a
6 piece of the communion wafer and poured it down
7 Willie's throat. He died shortly thereafter. I
8 can still feel Willie's skin and bones. To me,
9 that is what compassion is all about. Suffering
10 with people.
11 Q So your interest and knowledge in this
12 area is not just purely theoretical?
13 A No. Certainly much more I'd say because
14 I have been there.
15 Q There was some discussion about
16 submitting this case to a bioethics committee.
17 A Um-hmm.
18 Q Isn't it correct that such a bioethics
19 committee, or review process, is designed to bring
20 a consensus among the participants in decision
21 making?
22 A Well --
23 Q If you have, let's say a family dispute
24 as to care, that the purpose of the review process
25 is to try to reach a common ground?
221
1 A In terms of heart and mind, yes. But
2 for example, as in the case of my mother, it took
3 two or three days to work my two brothers. I was
4 the surrogate. So it was my right to make the
5 decision.
6 So if you mean consensus to validate my
7 decision, no, but what you hope to do is get
8 everybody emotionally on the road to recovery.
9 Q Were you aware that Mr. Schiavo proposed
10 to the Schindlers to participate in hospice
11 counseling?
12 A No.
13 Q You noted that the ethics committee -
14 in many cases like this in the hospital it may be
15 submitted to an ethics committee. Do you know
16 whether that is the case in nursing homes?
17 A Yes.
18 Q When you say a case like this, do you
19 mean a case that involves a family dispute?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Isn't it true that feeding tubes are
22 routinely removed from unconscious patients in
23 hosptals [sic] and nursing home settings?
24 A Definitely hospitals. I'm not certain
25 about every nursing home. Definitely hospitals.
222
1 Q Father, there was, you mentioned that
2 something could be learned by how the patients are
3 treated at Mother Theresa's Hospice. How are
4 elderly nuns and priests treated in end of life
5 situations like this?
6 A I often tell my own colleagues that we'd
7 learn a lot if we went to these old nunneries and
8 watched the way they take care of the old nuns.
9 It's ice chips. Maybe a spoonful of soup or
10 Gatorade, if they can tolerate it. Face clothes
11 on the forehead. Holding their hand. That I
12 think is dying with dignity.
13 The machinery and everything, that is
14 what was heartbreaking about my mother's situation
15 because there was not enough chance to give her
16 the love like I knew she deserved. I could never
17 get in the room.
18 4 There was some talk about assisted
19 suicide and I just want to clear this up. How do
20 you feel about physician assisted suicide?
21 A Absolutely against it. It is morally
22 wrong to do anything to take your life.
23 4 Correct me if I'm wrong. Was the gist
24 of your testimony that you believe that people
25 might be given to physician assisted suicide
223
1 because they will receive medical treatment
2 against their will?
3 A Absolutely.
4 Q That is why you are teaching people to
5 let them know that under the Catholic faith you
6 don't have to be treated at all costs?
7 A Absolutely.
8 Q And the consequence of people believing,
9 that may force them, lead them, to take their own
10 life?
11 A Absolutely.
12 Q That is the dark horizon [sic] in the medical
13 system that you are afraid of today?
14 A In my view, yes.
15 MR. FELOS: I have no other questions.
16 THE COURT: Recross?
17 MS. CAMPBELL: One, please.
18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
19 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
20 Q Would you consider the credibility of
21 the statement -- for example, in this case you
22 heard there was a statement made as to the wishes
23 of Theresa Schiavo. Would you consider the
24 credibility of circumstances around that statement
25 in considering her wishes?
224
1 A Credibility? If you mean in terms of
2 did someone want to DC everything in 36 hours or
3 72 hours, I certainly would say there is something
4 wrong here. In view of the length of time here,
5 yes, I would consider it. I would be concerned
6 about factors, factors surrounding that.
7 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Anything further?
9 MR. FELOS: No, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Is Father Murphy under
11 subpoena?
12 MR. FELOS: No. He is not.
13 THE COURT: Father, thank you very
14 much. You are free to go. All right, Mr. Felos.
15 Call your next witness.
16 MR. FELOS: Joan Schiavo.
17 THE BAILIFF: Stop here. Raise your
18 right hand. Face the judge for me.
19 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
20 THE COURT.)
21 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a seat.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. FELOS:
24 Q State your full name, please.
25 A Joan Schiavo.
225
1 Q Where do you live?
2 A Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
3 Q Are you married?
4 A Yes. I am.
5 Q To whom are you married, Mrs. Schiavo?
6 A William F. Schiavo, Jr.
7 Q Are you related to Michael and Terri
8 Schiavo?
9 A Yes. I am.
10 Q How are you related to them?
11 A I'm married to his oldest brother,
12 Bill.
13 Q When were you and Bill married?
14 A November 11, 1978.
15 Q Tell us, please, your educational
16 background.
17 A I have twelve years of a Catholic
18 education. Two-and-a-half years of college, but I
19 did not finish college.
20 Q Do you have a family?
21 A Yes. I do.
22 Q How many children?
23 A Three. Two boys and a girl.
24 Q Tell us a little bit about your
25 employment background. Where are you presently
226
1 employed?
2 A I worked at a place called Bets
3 Laboratory for eleven years. I stopped working
4 when I had children. Opened up --
5 Q What did you do at Bets Laboratory?
6 A I was a secretary: My friend and I
7 opened up our own cleaning business after my
8 children were a little bit older. I presently
9 stopped working, doing that, and I start a new job
10 next week as a medical secretary.
11 Q Do you know Theresa Schiavo?
12 A Yes. I do.
13 Q When did you first meet Terri?
14 A I met Terri at a party that my husband
15 and I had years ago. She came to it. It was the
16 first time she met us.
17 Q Was she married to Mike at that time?
18 A No. They were dating.
19 Q I notice you had a smile on your face
20 when you said you met her at that party. Was
21 there anything that happened at that party that
22 was particularly --
23 A Terri and Michael had come in. Michael
24 had introduced us to her. She was sitting beside
25 me at the time. My husband was out front at the
227
1 time. Everybody was drinking. And he was
2 somewhat loaded at the time.
3 He came walking in the house goofing
4 around. He told everybody -- there was a song or
5 something on the radio. He came in dancing. He
6 yelled out, "Everybody drop your pants," and Terri
7 cracked up laughing. I knew then that we were
8 going to get along just fine.
9 Q In the time period that Terri and Mike
10 lived in Philadelphia, which was I think about the
11 beginning of '86 -- let me backtrack. Do you
12 recall when it was you first met Terri?
13 A Well, I was married at the time. I
14 don't recall the year. I had already had B. J.
15 '84. Maybe '82, '81. I don't recall the definite
16 year.
17 Q In the years that you lived in
18 Philadelphia after you met Terri, how often would
19 you see Terri?
20 A In the beginning, I did not see her that
21 often because I didn't know her that well. I
22 would run into her every once in a while at my
23 inlaw's [sic] house. Every once in a while her and
24 Michael would come down on the weekend to see us,
25 and at that time, my son, B. J.
228
1 Q As you got to know Terri a bit more, did
2 you start to see each other more often?
3 A Yes. Saw her a lot on the weekends.
4 Talked to her a lot on the phone and saw her
5 during the week.
6 Q Did a friendship develop between the two
7 of you?
8 A Yes.
9 Q How would you describe your friendship
10 with Terri?
11 A Terri was my best friend and like a
12 sister that I never had.
13 Q When that friendship developed, how
14 often would you speak to each other on the phone?
15 A On the phone I would say maybe, out of
16 seven days, we talked to each other four or five.
17 Q Um-hmm. How often during the week would
18 you see her when you were best friends?
19 A Mostly on the weekends. Maybe two
20 times. Two or three times out of the week she had
21 either come to see us or I'd go down to her
22 family's house.
23 Q Between talking to her on the phone and
24 seeing her, would it be fair to say you had
25 contact with her almost everyday?
229
1 A Yes.
2 Q How would you describe Terri's
3 personality?
4 A She was great. She was a lot of fun.
5 Very caring. Was always there if you needed her.
6 Always there to listen if you had a problem. She
7 would do anything for you. She was a good person.
8 Q Did you ever -- would "shy" be a word
9 you would use to describe Terri?
10 A No.
11 Q Would "reserved" be a word that you
12 would use to describe Terri?
13 A No. Real outgoing. Always smiling.
14 Q Did she ever seem to be afraid to speak
15 up or tell her mind?
16 A No.
17 Q What type of things, when you became
18 best friends, what type of things did you talk
19 about?
20 A Did we talk about?
21 Q Um-hmm.
22 A Kids. Shopping. My husband. Michael.
23 Just general conversation.
24 Q Did you ever confide in each other?
25 A All the time.
230
1 Q What type of things -- did you and Terri
2 ever go out together?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What type of things did you do?
5 A Went to the movies. We went to the mall
6 a lot. Sometimes we went to the movies. We went
7 clubbing.
8 Q You mean nightclubbing?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did you take your husbands?
11 A Sometimes. Not all the time.
12 Q Now I think you mentioned before that
13 sometimes Terri would come over to your house?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you ever go over to Terri's house?
16 A Um-hmm.
17 Q Before Terri was married, do you know
18 whether she lived with her parents?
19 A She lived with her parents. Yes.
20 Q Did you ever go over to Terri's parent's
21 house?
22 A Yeah. I would just walk in.
23 Q Did you and Terri ever have a
24 conversation about the subject of artificial life
25 support?
231
1 A Yes.
2 Q Tell me, please, how that came about.
3 A A friend of mine and her husband had a
4 baby. It was their first baby, and the baby was
5 born sickly. They had to put the baby on a
6 ventilator or machines to keep the baby alive.
7 And they had to make that decision if they wanted
8 to take the baby off the tubes and all.
9 So during that time, I had talked to
10 Terri about it a lot because I was upset for my
11 girlfriend. They finally made that decision to
12 take the baby off the machine.
13 Q How long of a time was that from when
14 that first came up for your girlfriend until the
15 situation resolved for your girlfriend?
16 A Well, they didn't know anything was
17 wrong with the baby until after the baby was
18 born.
19 Q Um-hmm.
20 A I would say only within a few months.
21 Maybe not even.
22 Q I guess my question was, was this an
23 ongoing subject that you talked to Terri about?
24 In other words, did it take a while for the
25 parents of the baby to make that decision and
232
1 implement it?
2 A It took -- I guess for the parents it
3 took a little bit of time to make that decision
4 because it was their first born baby, and nobody
5 wants to see that happen. But they knew, for the
6 baby's sake, there was not anything they could
7 ever really do for the baby. I would say within,
8 maybe within a month's time.
9 Q How many times would you say you talked
10 to Terri?
11 A About that?
12 Q About that situation with your
13 girlfriend and her baby.
14 A When it first happened, it seemed like
15 we talked about it a lot. When I talked to her.
16 Q What did Terri have to say in response
17 to your telling her about that?
18 A She had said that if her and Michael
19 were ever put in that kind of a situation that
20 that would be a situation that she really would
21 not want to have to deal with, but she knows that
22 her and Michael would make the best decision and
23 that would be to do the same thing my girlfriend
24 and her husband did because she would not want to
25 put the baby through anything like that.
233
1 Q What was the decision the parents made?
2 A They took all the tubing and everything
3 off the baby.
4 Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss
5 with Terri, when talking about the girlfriend [sic], what
6 your personal preferences may be regarding
7 artificial life support?
8 A Yeah. We had watched a movie one time
9 on television. It was about somebody. I don't
10 remember. I don't remember the movie. It was
11 about a guy who had an accident and he was in a
12 comma. There was no help for him. We had stated
13 that if that ever happened to one of us, in our
14 lifetime, we would not want to go through that.
15 That we would want it stated in our will we would
16 want the tubes and everything taken out.
17 Q When you say "we" had stated it --
18 A Myself and her.
19 Q As best you can recall, what did Terri
20 say in response to seeing that movie?
21 A She did not like the movie. Just the
22 whole aspect of family and friends having to come
23 and see their son or friend like that, she thought
24 it was horrible.
25 Q Do you know what type of life support
234
1 the person in the movie was on? Do you recall?
2 A No. I don't know all the different -- I
3 just know there was some tubes in him. Like what
4 you call the breathing machine. The feeding
5 machine. I don't know all the different names of
6 the machines.
7 Q About how well do you recall these
8 conversations with Terri?
9 A Well --
10 Q I mean, are you sure Terri did not say
11 something like, "Gee, if that is me, don't pull
12 the plug. I want to stay alive like that."?
13 A No. No. I know she didn't say that.
14 Q Did Terri say anything about being
15 afraid to die and not wanting to let go?
16 A Hm-umm. You mean if she was on those
17 machines or in general?
18 Q Talking about those machines.
19 A No. She did not want to live like that.
20 She didn't want to go through that. Have people
21 come and see her like that. Do that to her family
22 and friends.
23 Q That is what she said?
24 A Um-hmm.
25 Q Mrs. Schiavo, when did you first relay
235
1 this information to either me or Mr. Schiavo? Do
2 you know when you first told somebody about this
3 information about Terri?
4 A It was you.
5 Q Do you recall when that was in?
6 A September. The fall.
7 Q Did you ever tell Mike about it?
8 A No.
9 Q Regarding the conversations stimulated
10 by the friend's baby, how many times would you say
11 Terri expressed her agreement with the parent's
12 decision not to continue life support?
13 A She agreed with it.
14 Q My question is you said you talked to
15 Terri about that a number of times?
16 A Um-hmm.
17 Q Did she express her opinion about it
18 once, or did she express her opinion about it more
19 than once?
20 A More. Several times. I'd say if I
21 talked to Terri maybe 14 days about it, she
22 probably expressed her opinion 12 out of the 14.
23 Q So this was not an isolated comment on
24 her part?
25 A No.
236
1 Q When Terri and Mike moved to Florida,
2 did that affect your friendship with her?
3 A It did not. I talked to her every day.
4 Q How -
5 A I didn't see her, but talked to her all
6 the time.
7 Q As time went on, after she moved down
8 here, did you get a chance to visit her?
9 A No. I did not have the finances to get
10 down to visit. I wanted to. Just did not have
11 the finances.
12 Q After she was here for a while, about
13 how often would you talk to her?
14 A Maybe, out of seven days a week, maybe
15 five.
16 Q How long would the two of you talk on
17 the phone?
18 A Well, when she called me, we talked a
19 little bit longer. When I called her, it was
20 maybe a little bit less.
21 Q In your testimony, you made some
22 reference to making wills. What was that again?
23 You mentioned something about you and Terri
24 talking about making wills?
25 A We had said during the time with that
237
1 movie, at one time we had said that if, that we
2 had always wanted stated, my husband and myself,
3 make up a will. She would want it stated, and
4 myself, I would, if it came down to something like
5 that, we would not want any kind of life support
6 MR. FELOS: Okay. Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Cross-examination?
8 CROSS-EXAMINATION
9 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
10 Q Good afternoon, Mrs. Schiavo. My name
11 is Pam Campbell. I'm the attorney representing
12 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler in this case.
13 A Hi.
14 Q Can you tell me approximately when was
15 the circumstances with your friend's baby? What
16 year?
17 A What year? Maybe '85 or '86.
18 Q It was before or after Terri and Mike
19 were married?
20 A After.
21 Q After?
22 A Um-hmm.
23 Q Were her comments in response, in your
24 conversations pertaining to the issue with the
25 baby, were they mostly surrounding if she and
238
1 Michael had a baby that this is what they would
2 want to do with the baby?
3 A Could you rephrase?
4 Q Um-hmm. When you were having this
5 conversation with her about your friend's baby --
6 A Right.
7 Q -- you are saying Terri made comments
8 about that. Were her comments based on what she,
9 what she would want to do if she and Michael's
10 child were in a hypothetical setting?
11 A You mean as far as she stating what her
12 and Michael would do in that situation?
13 Q Right. Right. With a baby.
14 A She told me what her and Michael would
15 want to do if it was her and Michael in that
16 situation.
17 Q So her comments were more for a child as
18 opposed to herself?
19 A At that time.
20 Q When was it that you were watching this
21 movie, approximately, from a time frame?
22 A It was after that happened with my
23 friend's baby. I don't know how many years or
24 months or days. But I would say within a two year
25 period maybe.
239
1 Q Had they moved to Florida yet?
2 A No.
3 Q So they were still living in the
4 Philadelphia area?
5 A Um-hmm.
6 Q Can you describe the scene in the movie
7 with the man and the tubes?
8 A He was a younger man. I don't remember
9 the movie. If I'm not mistaken, it was a diving
10 accident into a pool. He passed away at the end
11 of the movie. I don't remember the movie. I
12 really don't remember the movie.
13 Q Okay. Do you remember what the man
14 looked like? Whether or not he was in a hospital
15 setting?
16 A In the movie he was in a hospital
17 setting.
18 Q Do you recall where the tubes were
19 coming from?
20 A His mouth. He had some in his arm.
21 Q Was it the graphic recitation of that
22 picture in the movie which stimulated the comments
23 from Terri?
24 A I think it was the whole situation of
25 the movie. I don't think that was, it was just
240
1 that part. That part was very upsetting, but the
2 whole situation of the movie.
3 Q Was there a long period of time between
4 his accident and then his hospital stay and his
5 death in the movie?
6 A What is a movie? Everything is done
7 within a two hour period anyway, so -- he had the
8 accident. He was in the hospital. He passed
9 away. I'm trying to remember. Maybe months to a
10 year. I forget how long.
11 Q Do you remember when Terri and Mike
12 moved to Florida?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q When was that?
15 A I don't remember the year. I remembered
16 it. I didn't want them to go.
17 Q Did you talk to Terri -- you were
18 testifying about how frequently you talked to her.
19 Five out of seven days?
20 A Um-hmm.
21 Q Was that right up to the time of the
22 accident?
23 A Um-hmm. I talked to her two days before
24 it happened.
25 Q Did she ever discuss with you problems
241
1 that she and Mike were having?
2 A No. I mean, no marriage is perfect.
3 Mine is not. It was nothing out of the ordinary.
4 Q Did she discuss with you her desire to
5 become pregnant?
6 A She wanted children.
7 Q Do you know that she was going to a
8 doctor concerning fertility issues?
9 A I'm trying to remember. Yeah.
10 Q Do you recall how long of a period she
11 had been trying to get pregnant?
12 A No. That I don't remember.
13 Q After she came, after she and Michael
14 moved to Florida, did you get to see Terri after
15 that?
16 A No. I had three children. My husband
17 had a new job. The money was not there. But I
18 would have loved to have gone to see her.
19 Q Since the accident which occurred to
20 Terri in February of 1990, did you see Terri
21 during that time frame?
22 A Hm-umm. I questioned my inlaws all the
23 time about it. My brother-in-law. Everybody kept
24 me informed on what was going on.
25 Q Have you seen Terri recently?
242
1 A No. But I intend to see her while I'm
2 here.
3 Q Do you know what type of life sustaining
4 measures are being taken for Terri?
5 A What do I understand the update of her
6 condition is? Is that what you mean?
7 Q Do you -- is it your understanding that
8 Terri is on a ventilator?
9 A Um --
10 Q The thing that makes her chest go up and
11 down like you described in the movie?
12 A No. I don't know. I thought it was
13 just the feeding machine. Feeding tube.
14 Q Do you know what a feeding tube would
15 look like?
16 A No.
17 Q So you have not seen Terri as to what
18 she looks like?
19 A No.
20 Q You don't know if she has, is connected
21 to tubes or anything like that?
22 A No.
23 Q When this first happened to Terri, were
24 you aware of what type of life support she was
25 having then?
243
1 A When it first happened?
2 Q Um-hmm.
3 A Yeah. Breathing machine. Feeding tube.
4 Q Did you tell Michael any of her
5 comments before?
6 A Hm-umm.
7 Q Did you relay any of the comments about
8 Terri's not wanting to live in a condition like
9 that to Michael during that time frame?
10 A Not at all. He was going through too
11 much at the time. I didn't mention it.
12 Q So during this nine year period, you
13 still have never told him about it?
14 A No.
15 Q Doesn't it seem odd that you would not
16 tell him?
17 A I think if he questioned me, I would
18 have told him. He never questioned me. It never
19 came up in a conversation between him and I. If
20 he would have said something to me, I would have.
21 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no further
22 questions. Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Redirect?
24
25
244
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. FELOS:
3 Q You were asked a question about Terri
4 wanting to get pregnant and seeing a doctor. Did
5 Terri ever mention anything to you about the
6 frequency of her periods or not getting periods?
7 A They were not real frequent.
8 Q Now the opposing attorney asked you a
9 question when did you have the conversations with
10 Terri about the girlfriend's baby.
11 A Um-hmm
12 Q I believe you used the words "after
13 Terri had moved". I want you to clarify that.
14 Did you mean after she moved from her parent's
15 home in Philadelphia or after she moved to Florida
16 with Mike?
17 A The situation with my girlfriend's baby
18 was when she lived here, not in Florida.
19 Q When she lived where?
20 A With Michael.
21 Q In what city?
22 A Pennsylvania. Philadelphia.
23 Q So the conversations you had with Terri
24 about the girlfriend's baby was, I think you
25 mentioned, was in Philadelphia?
245
1 A Um-hmm.
2 Q Do you know that Terri lived with her
3 parents in Philadelphia and then, when she
4 married, she moved and lived with Mike in
5 Philadelphia?
6 A Um-hmm.
7 Q The movie on television was that, that
8 occurred before or after the -- did you testify
9 that occurred before the conversations you had
10 about the baby? Let me ask it again. The
11 conversation you had with Terri about a TV show
12 and the diver not wanting be on life support, was
13 that before or after the situation came up with
14 your girlfriend?
15 A After.
16 MR. FELOS: No other questions,
17 Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Any re-cross?
19 MS. CAMPBELL: No thank you.
20 THE COURT: You can stand down. I
21 assume she's not under subpoena?
22 MR. FELOS: She is not.
23 THE COURT: Anything else this afternoon?
24 MR. FELOS: Fortunately, or
25 unfortunately, we have exhausted our witnesses,
246
1 too, and should be concluding tomorrow morning.
2 So I want to mention that, so opposing counsel
3 knows to have her witnesses ready for the start of
4 her case.
5 THE COURT: Very well. Stand in recess
6 until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning.
7 (THEREUPON, COURT RECESSED AT 4:35 P.M. ON
8 1-24-00 AND THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD ON
9 1-25-00 AT 9:00 A.M.)
10 THE COURT: Petitioner ready to proceed
11 in this case?
12 MR. FELOS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Respondent ready to proceed?
14 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Call your next witness.
16 MR. FELOS: We call Dr. Vincent
17 Gambone.
18 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
19 THE COURT.)
20 DIRECT EXAMINATION
21 BY MR. FELOS:
22 Q State your full name, please.
23 A Victor Gambone.
24 Q Where do you live?
25 A Dunedin.
247
1 Q How are you employed?
2 A I'm a physician.
3 Q Are you a medical doctor?
4 A Yes. A medical doctor licensed in the
5 State of Florida.
6 Q Can you tell us, please, your
7 educational background?
8 A Yes. A graduate of Penn State
9 University, where I did my undergraduate work and
10 also my received my medical degree. I did my
11 internal medicine training at the University of
12 South Florida in Tampa. I'm board certified in
13 internal medicine and I'm board certified in
14 geriatric medicine. I'm also board certified in
15 medical direction and long-term care. I'm also
16 certified by the American Board of Quality
17 Assurance and Utilization Review.
18 Q When you use the term "board certified",
19 can you briefly explain what that means?
20 A Yes. This is one way of establishing
21 core knowledge and expertise in a particular
22 field, which is recognized nationally.
23 Q Again, you were board certified in
24 geriatric medicine?
25 A Yes.
248
1 Q The last one you mentioned was?
2 A Quality Assurance and Utilization
3 Review.
4 Q For long-term care?
5 A No. In general for medical quality
6 assurance.
7 Q Can you explain briefly what that is?
8 A Yes. It's, I received special training
9 in ways of assuring that quality exists in the
10 work that is done in the medical profession. So I
11 might be called on to be on committees or to
12 review work of other physicians for quality.
13 Q Dr. Gambone, do you know Theresa
14 Schiavo?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Are you her primary treating physician?
17 A Yes. I am.
18 Q How long have you been Theresa's primary
19 treating physician?
20 A For almost two years.
21 Q Can you tell us a little bit about your
22 duties. As a primary treating physician, what do
23 you consider your duties to be regarding Theresa?
24 A My duties are to assure that she
25 receives proper medical care in the facility where
249
1 she resides.
2 Q How many times have you visited Theresa?
3 A I visit her at least every other month.
4 Occasionally more often than that. I would
5 estimate I have visited her probably ten times
6 during the past year. There have been other
7 physicians, or a physician who works with me, who
8 visits her periodically in my absence.
9 Q Now describe for us, please, the
10 procedure that you would undergo, the procedure
11 you underwent on your initial examination of
12 Theresa.
13 A An initial examination, it was a
14 comprehensive examination and I review the prior
15 records. I took a current history from those who
16 would give me history. That is Michael, her
17 husband, and also the care-givers at the nursing
18 home. After reviewing the records, I performed a
19 physical examination and then made a report of
20 that examination.
21 Q In the course of your examination, did
22 you talk to Theresa? Did you ask her questions?
23 A Yes. I tried to elicit some response
24 from her, either verbally or visually. These are
25 -- were some of the tests that I performed.
250
1 Q On each of your visits after your
2 initial visit, did you try to elicit some response
3 from Theresa?
4 A Yes. Whenever I would greet any of my
5 patients, even though they may be comatose or
6 unconscious, I would always greet them with their
7 name.
8 Q In all your visits to Theresa, have you
9 ever noticed any response by Theresa which would
10 lead you to believe that she has cognition?
11 A No.
12 Q When is the last time you visited
13 Theresa?
14 A The last time was, I believe it was a
15 Friday. Probably was the 7th of January.
16 Q How would you describe Theresa's
17 condition in medical terms?
18 A I would describe her condition as a
19 vegetative state.
20 Q Dr. Gambone, do you know of any
21 treatment, modality, or thing that can be done for
22 Theresa which will improve her condition?
23 A No. I don't.
24 Q Now let's talk a little bit about the
25 nursing home. Is there a nurse on duty that
251
1 supervises the care of patients when the
2 physicians are not there?
3 A Yes. There are nurses on duty 24 hours
4 a day.
5 Q If there were any change in Theresa's
6 condition, such as Theresa said something or
7 Theresa responded in some way, what would be the
8 duty of the nursing home regarding communication
9 to you?
10 A Any change in condition, and this would
11 be considered a significant change in condition,
12 should this occur, the nurse would immediately
13 report this to the physician.
14 Q Has any nurse ever reported any such
15 change in condition to you?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Please describe Theresa's physical
18 condition as opposed to her mental condition.
19 A Physically, I would describe her
20 condition as very good. Excellent.
21 Q Does she have any physical problems?
22 A The physical problems that she has are
23 related to her neurologic condition.
24 Q What are those physical problems?
25 A Contractures in which the stronger
252
1 muscles of the body would react against the weaker
2 ones and so the flexor muscles -- so your hands
3 would contract. She has contractions. They have
4 worked with those contractions over the years.
5 Q We have heard some testimony about a
6 dropped foot. Does she have a dropped foot?
7 A Yes. Because of the neurologic damage,
8 that is another related condition.
9 Q When muscles become unused and
10 contractured over a period of time, is there any
11 permanent damage to the muscular system? In other
12 words, if Theresa, hypothetically Theresa awoke
13 and regained consciousness, would she have the use
14 of those limbs?
15 A Over this period of time it would be
16 unlikely because without activity, electrical
17 activity of the muscles, death of the muscles
18 occur. Death of the end plate which is, and I'll
19 try not to be too technical here, but the nerve
20 muscle inner connection. There is death of that
21 area or destruction of that area without use,
22 without the electrical chemical activity that is
23 necessary to maintain it.
24 Q So is it fair to say that, if
25 hypothetically Theresa Schiavo regained
253
1 consciousness, she would be a quadraplegic?
2 A I would say that she certainly would
3 have serious impairments, and I could not tell you
4 exactly what they are. But quadriplegia [sic] is a
5 medical term and you know, it may appear the same
6 to you -- to a lay person. Yes. The weakness
7 that she would have would be similar to
8 quadraplegia [sic].
9 Q Um-hmm. Is a patient in a vegetative --
10 is a patient who has lost the swallow reflex -- or
11 let me backtrack. Does Theresa Schiavo have a
12 swallow reflex? Can she take in fluids?
13 A No. She cannot.
14 Q Does a patient who has lost the swallow
15 reflex, are they subject to any greater incidents
16 of any maladies such as infections or any
17 particular problems?
18 A Yes. Without the swallow reflex, just
19 the normal secretions in your mouth, your saliva
20 could go into the lung. Because normally we just,
21 when fluid collects in the back of her throat
22 throughout the day, we just swallow and put it
23 into the stomach. Without that reflex, its more
24 likely for that fluid to go into the lungs.
25 Q What happens when that occurs in such a
254
1 patient?
2 A Normally someone would cough to bring up
3 the phlegm, but even with the cough reflex, still
4 fluid can get down into the lungs. So she is at a
5 high risk for what we consider the aspiration,
6 which is allowing fluid or other contents to go
7 into the lung.
8 Q We have heard some testimony before
9 about that Theresa has had respiratory
10 infections. Would that have any connection with
11 the aspiration you mentioned?
12 A Yes. It could. During the two years I
13 have taken care of her that has not been a problem
14 that I recall, but there is history to suggest
15 this was a problem in the past.
16 Q You mentioned that you found her in
17 exceptionally good physical condition?
18 A Yes.
19 Q What do you attribute that to?
20 A Well, because I take care of many
21 residents in nursing homes, a lot has to do with
22 the care provided, because she is totally
23 dependent on others to provide her care. By
24 paying very close attention to detail in her care,
25 this has allowed her to, at least during the time
255
1 period I have been taking care of her, maintain a
2 very good physical condition.
3 Q Have you ever had patients or a
4 patient's family complain that nursing home
5 personnel just don't give that high quality of
6 care on all occasions?
7 A Yes. I have heard of instances where
8 there was some laxity in the care given.
9 Q What role does the family of the patient
10 have regarding -- is there any role the family of
11 the patient has in assuring the patient gets good
12 nursing home care?
13 A My experience has been that the more
14 attention the family gives to the care, the more
15 visits that are made, minor things are brought to
16 the attention of the staff and attended to before
17 they become major problems. So its very
18 important for the family to be involved, or an
19 interested party to be involved, in the care.
20 Q Have you found Mr. Schiavo to be
21 involved in Theresa's care?
22 A Yes. Very much so. And Michael has
23 requested that if there are any changes in
24 treatments, any, even the slightest problems, that
25 he is to be notified immediately. I have spoken
256
1 to him on various occasions about any changes I
2 thought may be needed in her care.
3 Q Dr. Gambone, you previously signed an
4 affidavit in this case. Let me show it to you.
5 Do you have a copy of that in your file?
6 A Yes. I do.
7 Q If you can refer to the copy in your
8 file. In paragraph three of your affidavit you
9 state that Theresa Marie Schiavo is not competent
10 to make medical treatment decisions for herself
11 and does not have a reasonable probability of
12 recovering competency so that she may exercise
13 directly her right to withdraw or withhold life
14 prolonging procedures.
15 Can you tell us how you reached the
16 conclusion that Theresa is not competent to make
17 medical treatment decisions and why there is no
18 probability she can regain that capacity?
19 A Yes. I think this is part and parcel
20 with her vegetative state in that she cannot, she
21 does not exhibit any cognitive behavior. Any
22 volitional movement. Any ability that I could
23 perceive of her awareness of her environment or
24 surroundings.
25 Q In your affidavit, you also state that
257
1 Theresa Marie Schiavo's condition is terminal.
2 Let me, to refresh your recollection, read to you
3 the statutory definition of terminal. Terminal
4 condition means a condition caused by injury,
S disease, or illness from which there is no
6 reasonable medical probability of recovery and
7 which without treatment can be expected to cause
8 death.
9 Can you explain to us how you reached
10 the opinion that Theresa's physical condition is
11 terminal?
12 A Yes. She has a feeding tube which is
13 placed into the stomach that allows us to provide
14 her with nutrition and hydration necessary for
15 life. Without this particular treatment, she
16 would pass on probably in a matter of weeks.
17 Q Have you had any -- have you treated any
18 patients in which feeding tubes were removed?
19 A Yes. I have.
20 Q Have you cared for patients who died as
21 a result of removal of artificial provisions of
22 sustenance?
23 A Yes. I have.
24 Q Can you explain, medically, how that
25 occurs?
258
1 A Yes. Without food and nutrition, the
2 body uses its own energy sources, and when they
3 are exhausted, the vital organs shut down.
4 Particularly the kidneys. When the kidneys
5 deteriorate poisons, which are actually breakdown
6 products of metabolism, accumulate in the body.
7 We use the word uremia to describe this
8 condition. Uremia is a condition which puts one
9 into a deep sleep and they would pass on in their
10 sleep.
11 Q I think you mentioned when a patient
12 does not receive nutrition. Is that the same case
13 for hydration? When a patient receives no
14 hydration at all?
15 A Yes. It is the same condition. It
16 would, I think, be difficult to give hydration and
17 no nutrition because it would prolong the process
18 of dying. It would extend it probably a month or
19 maybe more.
20 Q Does Theresa receive her hydration
21 through the gastric tube as well?
22 A Yes. She does.
23 Q If Theresa no longer receives nutrition
24 and hydration through the gastric tube, in your
25 1 estimation, how many days approximately would it
259
1 be before she died?
2 A It would probably be within a couple of
3 weeks.
4 Q In your experience in treating patients
5 who have so died, from a medical standpoint, was
6 it a painful death? Did they require pain
7 medications or significant pain medications as a
8 result of withholding fluids and nutrition?
9 A No. I have never noted anyone to
10 express pain or show signs of pain. Grimacing.
11 Agitation.
12 Q Are you aware of any -- have there been
13 any studies or articles written about the question
14 of whether a death by that means is painful?
15 A Yes. There has been quite a bit of
16 literature from the hospice organization. Also,
17 there were recent medical articles in the Journal
18 of the American Medical Association and also in
19 the
20 discusses withdrawl [sic] of feeding tubes and the
21 process of dying. In all the literature that I
22 have reviewed, this is not a painful process.
23 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Dr. Gambone.
24 THE COURT: Cross-examination?
25
260
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
3 Q Good morning, Dr. Gambone. My name is
4 Pam Campbell and I represent Terri's parents, Mr.
5 and Mrs. Schindler in this action. Have you ever
6 had the occasion to meet Mr. and Mrs. Schindler?
7 A No. I have not.
8 Q Are you aware of their position
9 concerning Terri's feeding tube, whether it should
10 be maintained or not?
11 A Yes. I am.
112 Q How long have you been a practicing
13 physician?
14 A I have been in practice in the State of
15
16 Q Is that when you also received your
17
18 A Yes, ma'am.
19 Q Does Terri have a menstrual period?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Does that cause any extra problems for
22 her?
23 A No more than any woman, but this is
24 something that has to be attended to by the staff
25 because she cannot care for herself.
261
1 Q Could she get pregnant?
2 A Yes. She can.
3 Q What would be Terri's life expectancy if
4 the feeding tube were to be maintained?
5 A I cannot give you a definite answer.
6 She is in good physical condition. As far as I
7 know, there is not a lot of data on studies of
8 individuals like this and how long they would live
9 on a tube.
10 Q Do you recall what those articles
11 suggest in the way of a life span?
12 A The articles suggest a shortened life
13 span, but I could not give you a specific number
14 because many of these people are starting at
15 different ages. She's starting at a very young
16 age and there just is not a lot of information
17 about someone that young.
18 Q What is the average age of the patients
19 that you treat?
20 A The average age is probably about 80,
21 85.
22 Q So Theresa is considerably one of your
23 younger patients?
24 A Yes. She is.
25 In all the patients you have treated,
262
1 have there been any times when those patients, in
2 a similar vegetative state as Theresa, have come
3 out of that vegetative state?
4 A Not that I know of.
5 Q None that you specifically treated?
6 A Yes. That is correct.
7 Q You testified with Mr. Felos that you
8 had not been contacted ever regarding a change in
9 condition regarding Theresa. Could you elaborate
10 on that a little bit more?
11 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object to the
12 form of the question. I believe the testimony and
13 question was were you ever contacted regarding a
14 change of condition regarding Theresa's
15 cognizance. He said no.
16 MS. CAMPBELL: It is my recollection it
17 was not specifically to cognizance, so that is
18 what I was trying to get to.
19 THE COURT: Well, the question had to do
20 with if something happened, how would you handle
21 it. The doctor said those type of changes, if
22 significant, they would contact the physician. I
23 think he simply testified as to procedure. I
24 think your question is appropriate.
25 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Thank you. Doctor,
263
1 have you ever been contacted by any of the nurses
2 in the two years you have taken care of Theresa
3 regarding any change in her condition?
4 A Yes. I believe I have.
5 Q Would that be in regard to any laughter?
6 A No.
7 Q Would it be in regard to any twitching?
8 A Not that I recall.
9 Q Perhaps a fever?
10 A Yes. There was an instance where she
11 had an upper respiratory infection that I recall.
12 Q So any medical type of change in
13 Theresa, one way or the other, the nurses would
14 contact you?
15 A Yes.
16 Q When you go to the nursing home, do you
17 review the chart each time?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you specifically review the nursing
20 notes?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you review the recreation notes?
23 A Not really.
24 Q Do you review the social service
25 progress notes?
264
1 A From time to time I do.
2 Q Were you taking care of Theresa Schiavo
3 since February 1997?
4 A 1998.
5 Q 1998 is when you first took over?
6 A Um-hmm.
7 Q Do you recall reading in there any
8 progress notes concerning Terri laughing at jokes-
9 A No. I don't recall.
10 Q Would that make a difference to you in
11 your opinion in the affidavit that you filed with
12 this Court?
13 A I guess that this is very unusual
14 information that I was not aware of.
15 Q I'd like to read to you some of the
16 notes and see if that would bear a change on the
17 affidavit that you have filed.
18 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. We
19 have gone through this objection et al before.
20 Counsel is not introducing in evidence the medical
21 records, social service notes of the facility, and
22 because they are not being introduced into
23 evidence, she can't read the contents of those
24 documents in the proceedings, which in essence
25 will make them evidence.
265
1 We object on those grounds. In
2 addition, as a matter of fairness, Your Honor,
3 there are probably a couple thousand pages of
4 medical records for Theresa Schiavo which were
5 subpoenaed and both sides had copies. Had
6 opposing counsel mentioned there would be the
7 introduction of some medical records in this
8 trial, we then would have had an opportunity to
9 have one of our witnesses comb the thousands of
10 pages of records and specifically present to the
11 Court the thousands of entries in those records
12 stating the patient was nonresponsive.
13 But we have not done that because these
14 records were not to be introduced into evidence.
15 So I think it's unfair to now selectively take one
16 or two lines of those thousands of pages and try
17 to get them into evidence by reading them.
18 THE COURT: What is the basis of your
19 statement that they are not coming into evidence?
20 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, we exchanged a
21 list of documents that each party -- after the
22 status conference, we exchanged a list of
23 documents that the parties were going to
24 introduce. We listed our documents. We were told
25 the documents that the respondents were going to
266
1 introduce and the medical records were not listed.
2 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell?
3 MS. CAMPBELL: I think it would be
4 proper under the impeachment process. This doctor
S has testified that he reviewed the records and
6 came up with his opinion to render before this
7 Court in the form of an affidavit. If there are
8 records -- when he says he reviewed the records,
9 they are voluminous, but the records that I
10 specifically am going to refer to are since his
11 care.
12 I would believe that if he is making a
13 statement of an opinion based on her records and
14 on his experience with this patient, he would be
15 aware of what these notes say specifically
16 pertaining to her laughter. Mr. Felos is the one
17 who provided me with these records.
18 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, number one, we
19 can't cross-examine a line in the medical records.
20 If counsel wanted to present evidence that a
21 social service worker perhaps interpreted
22 Theresa's Schiavo's sounds as laughter, she had
23 the opportunity to find the social service worker
24 and subpoena her as a witness. List her as a
25 witness and subject her to cross-examination.
267
1 Number one, the records are hearsay.
2 But number two, even beyond that point,
3 because they were not going to be introduced and
4 used, we did not take the step of going through
5 the balance of the thousands of pages of records
6 to have an opportunity to rebut that.
7 THE COURT: Well, clearly they are
8 hearsay, but there are exceptions to the hearsay
9 rule. One of them is business records. You know,
10 the way Mr. Erhardt drafted the statute,
11 contemporaneously by business documents. I don't
12 know what the record is because it's not in
13 evidence.
14 Were this a trial over simply dollars, I
15 would probably hold you to a little higher
16 standard than what you put on your pretrial
17 statement. For the very limited purpose, although
18 I'm not sure it matters what happened three years
19 ago, I think what really matters is what the
20 condition is today, but for the limited purpose of
21 impeachment, I'll permit you to allow the doctor
22 to read the note.
23 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
24 THE COURT: The evidence is such,
25 because it has not been listed, but for
268
1 impeachment purposes see if that alters --
2 MS. CAMPBELL: As one note of
3 correction, we didn't have a pretrial order in
4 this case which required the exchange of evidence.
5 Both parties did give each other a list, but there
6 was not a specific pretrial order that was
7 provided in this case.
8 THE COURT: We will stand corrected
9 then, although with the caliber of attorneys, I am
10 not sure I need an order. So you may show the
11 notes. You will, for the record, tell us what
12 date those notes are and who is the author.
113 MR. FELOS: May I see the notes you are
14 going to show?
15 MS. CAMPBELL: May I approach the
16 witness?
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 4 (By Ms. Campbell) Doctor, I am showing
19 you a page out of the activities progress notes
20 dated 2-11-98. Were you treating Theresa in
21 February of '98 to your knowledge?
22 A Yes. The date of my first visit was
23 February the 5th. This is dated February 11th.
24 Q If you can go halfway down in the middle
25 of the note where it begins "staff residents are
269
1 familiar If you could please read that
2 sentence.
3 A Before I read that sentence --
4 Q Um-hmm.
5 A -- could I just ask -- I see that this
6 is signed by a CTR. Could you explain to me what
7 a CTR is?
8 Q I'm not too sure. Looks like her name
9 is Marie. I'm not sure what the last name is.
10 A I'm not familiar with the term CTR, as
11 to what that signifies.
12 Q I'm not familiar, other than what the
13 note refers to. If you would like to take a
14 minute and read the whole note.
15 A Yeah. It would help me to know who this
16 person is, and you know, are they a recreational
17 therapist? Is this a medical person?
18 MR. FELOS: I believe, if it would
19 assist the proceedings, this is a recreational
20 therapist.
21 THE WITNESS: All right.
22 MS. CAMPBELL: If you would like to take
23 a minute and read the full note.
24 A Okay. Resident's status is unchanged.
25 She is minimally responsive, oriented times one.
270
1 Q (By Ms. Campbell) If you really -- I'd
2 just like you to read that silently to yourself
3 and then go down to the main part where it says
4 residents are familiar.
5 A Oh. Okay. Would you like me to read
6 where it says staff residents?
7 THE COURT: We don't need that into the
8 record.
9 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay.
10 THE COURT: It almost does sound like
11 that is true hearsay.
12 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay. If you can take a
13 minute to read that note.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. I have read it.
15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Thank you. I will
16 take it back. Do you see where it specifically
17 refers to visitors stopping to tell her jokes?
18 A Yes. It also says that she occasionally
19 laughs. It does not suggest a cause/effect
20 relationship.
21 Q I'm now going to, I would like to now
22 show you recreation notes dated July 23, 1999. If
23 you can specifically read this first portion of
24 it.
25 A This is signed on a different page. Do
271
1 you know who made this entry?
2 Q I do not. Would these typically be
3 notes that you would have available to you to look
4 at in the file?
5 A Yes. Those notes are available to me
6 and I did not review those notes from the
7 recreational therapist.
8 Q Excuse me. I do have the second page.
9 It does not really have any notes on it, just the
10 signature.
11 A Okay. Thank you.
12 MR. FELOS: May I see the signature?
13 Q (By Ms. Campbell) On these notes, do
14 you see any comments about --
15 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. I
16 believe what the Court has allowed or instructed
17 is the witness may read the notes and then be
18 asked whether it changes his opinion, without
19 having the substance of the note read or
20 explained.
21 THE COURT: I believe that was what we
22 are to do was to permit the doctor to read the
23 notes to see if they altered his opinion.
24 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Have you ever
25 witnessed Theresa Schiavo laughing?
272
[missing text]
273
1 I will give you an example. When I
2 examined her, Terri will look around. Her eyes
3 will move right to left. And when you enter the
4 room, if you enter the room when she is looking,
5 she turns her eyes to that side. It appears that
6 she is acknowledging you. It appears that way.
7 You can walk up to Terri and take your hand and
8 put it over her eye and she will not blink.
9 You can take anyone who has the least
10 bit of consciousness and put their hand anywhere
11 near their eye, from the side, and they will
12 blink. And she will continue to look, but will
13 not blink. It is hard for me to appreciate that
14 she knows that something else is there if she
15 can't even appreciate a threat, which is a very
16 basic instinct.
17 Q Are you aware or does Terri currently
18 receive any physical or occupational therapy?
19 A She has from time to time. I think at
20 this point therapy is provided on, they use the
21 term on a restorative basis. It is not done by a
22 licensed therapist. It is done by nursing staff
23 who have been trained in therapy.
24 Q How often does she receive that kind of
25 restorative therapy?
274
1 A She should receive this restorative
2 therapy every day as part of the nursing care.
3 Q Would that assist in any stimulation to
4 be provided to Theresa?
5 A You know, I would -- I'm not sure what
6 you are getting at, but I would assume that any
7 type of stimulation would be something, even just
8 in the daily care, which is something that could
9 provoke some response if it was present.
10 Q Is Theresa currently being treated for
11 any infections in the two years you have been
12 treating her?
13 A I recall an upper respiratory infection
14 during that period of time.
15 Q And she was treated?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Have you at any time since you have been
18 taking care of her had Mr. Schiavo ask you not to
19 treat an infection?
20 A No. There were never any occasions
21 where he withheld any treatment that I recall. He
22 was very cooperative.
23 Q Are you aware of any discussions that
24 took place between the nursing home and Mr.
25 Schiavo concerning the treatment of infections for
275
1 Theresa?
2 A No. Not that I recall.
3 Q Not in the two years you have been
4 treating her?
5 A No.
6 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no further
7 questions.
8 THE COURT: Redirect?
9 MR. FELOS: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FELOS:
12 Q You were asked about the treatment of
13 infections, whether under your care Terri has been
14 treated for any infections, and you mentioned a
15 respiratory infection. In fact, hasn't Terri had
16 a bladder infection that was treated?
17 A Yes. Now that you mention it, she also
18 has had a bladder infection.
19 Q How was that bladder infection treated?
20 A With an antibiotic.
21 Q How were the antibiotics administered?
22 A Through the feeding tube.
23 Q Were there any IVs?
24 A I don't recall. But, you know, I really
25 was not prepared to give this detail on her two
276
1 year history.
2 Q Um-hmm.
3 A Whether we used an IV at some point in
4 time.
5 Q In your testimony, I believe in the
6 cross-examination you centered on the word
7 "occasional" when Ms. Campbell did read a portion
8 of the notes. I think you made the comment that
9 because the word occasional was used, that would
10 tend to suggest that these are not cognitive
11 responses on Terri's part. Can you explain a
12 little bit more why that is so?
13 A Well, the way it was written, I guess
14 you would have to read the statement, but the way
15 it was written, it is just that passersby are
16 making jokes and occasionally she laughed. Now,
17 okay, does that mean that from that information I
18 should conclude that she was laughing at their
19 jokes? This was a, you know, she received some
20 information which she processed and then decided
21 to laugh in response to it?
22 Q You were on cross-examination and
23 opposing counsel mentioned that Theresa's mother
24 believes that Terri laughs and responds.
25 Theresa's mother testified in her deposition that
277
1 one of the actions that she takes to be a
2 cognitive response of Terri is that when she
3 speaks on one side of Terri, Terri will move her
4 head. However, in her deposition, Mrs. Schindler
5 said sometimes she will turn her head and look
6 right at me.
7 The fact that Theresa does not turn her
8 head every time to look at her mother, would that
9 support or detract from your opinion?
10 A I think a consistency would be helpful
11 to me. If you said nine out of ten times she
12 turned to me, that would have some meaning. But
13 if it was occasional, a random act --
14 Q Sometimes?
15 A -- suggests a more random act rather
16 than a purposeful act. That is what I can glean
17 from the information that you have provided and
18 from the notes of the recreational therapist.
19 Q You were also asked about, I think
20 menstrual pain or pain or moaning. Do you agree
21 with the opinion of Dr. Barnhill that moans that
22 Terri has in response to certain stimuli that we.
23 would consider painful is a brain stem response?
24 A Yes. I would. I think that, if I can
25 just give you an. example, that if you were to
278
1 touch a hot stove with your finger, you would pull
2 it away very rapidly or before you really
3 perceived what had happened because that is a
4 higher function. I think this is a brain stem
5 response.
6 Q Okay. How often do you go to nursing
7 homes?
8 A Every day.
9 Q You are familiar with -- you are board
10 certified in making sure people get quality care?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is it fair to say you are somewhat
13 familiar with how nursing homes work?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Do you have any idea as to what
16 training a person who is in the activity program
17 of a nursing home might have? Do they go to
18 medical school?
19 A No. They do not.
20 Q Do they go to nursing school?
21 A No. They do not.
22 Q Do you know whether they have any
23 clinical training or skills to be hired to sit
24 with the residents and play cards with them or
25 watch TV with them as engaged in activities with
279
1 them?
2 A I'm not aware of the specific
3 qualifications of the individuals that had made
4 notes in the record.
5 Q Would you disagree that -- would you
6 disagree with the statement that no specific
7 training is required for those positions?
8 A Perhaps that is true. I really could
9 not say for sure.
10 Q As a physician, would you give much
11 weight to a medical diagnosis given by someone
12 hired by a nursing home to play cards or watch
13 television with a resident?
14 A Would you repeat that question again?
15 Q Would you give, as a physician, would
16 you give much weight to a medical opinion given by
17 an individual hired by a nursing home to play
18 cards and have activities with a patient?
19 A I certainly would respect their opinion
20 and would review the situation myself and try to
21 recreate what they have described. You know, in
22 my experience and from my discussions with others
23 who are more knowledgeable of medical issues,
24 this was not apparent to my observation or the
25 observation of those whose judgment I feel, you
280
1 know, is worthy of note.
2 Q Thank you. Dr. Gambone, you are a
3 caring physician; you are interested in Theresa's
4 welfare; is that correct?
5 A Yes. I am.
6 Q Is there any reason whatsoever that you
7 would not say you believe Theresa was responsive
8 or had cognition if you felt that was so?
9 A No. There is no reason for me not to
10 only give you the information that I have and
11 make an opinion based upon my knowledge and
12 expertise in the area.
13 MR. FELOS: Okay. Thank you.
14 THE COURT: Any recross?
15 MS. CAMPBELL: No.
16 THE COURT: Is Dr. Gambone under
17 subpoena?
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: Is there any reason for him
20 to be retained further?
21 MR. FELOS: No.
22 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Thank you. Doctor, you are
24 released from your subpoena.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
281
1 MR. FELOS: Call Beverly Tyler.
2 THE BAILIFF: Stop and stand here. Face
3 the judge. Raise your right hand to receive the
4 oath.
5 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
6 THE COURT.)
7 THE COURT: Be seated in that chair,
8 please.
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. FELOS:
11 Q Good morning.
12 A Good morning.
13 Q State your full name and address,
14 please.
15 A My name is Beverly Tyler. 158 Adair
16 Street in Decatur, Georgia.
17 Q How are you employed at this time,
18 Ms. Tyler?
19 A Executive director of an organization
20 called Georgia Health Decisions.
21 Q Can you tell us what is Georgia Health
22 Decisions?
23 A Sure. We are a nonprofit organization
24 in Georgia. Federally tax exempt. Our mission is
25 threefold. Educate Georgians about health care
282
1 issues, understand their attitudes and values
2 around health care decisions, and report those to
3 people who make health policy in our state.
4 Q Tell us a little bit about the structure
5 of your organization. How many employees?
6 A There are eight employees at Georgia
7 Health Decisions. Three of them live in Atlanta.
8 Others are community based. We do a lot of
9 community based work around the state. There is a
10 volunteer Board of Directors of about 40 people
11 and many volunteers who work on projects
12 throughout the state.
13 Q Why was Georgia Health Decisions formed?
14 A We began our organization in 1991. It
15 was sort of at the height of, at the time, talking
16 about health care reform in the state. We had not
17 had much managed care. Twenty-two percent were
18 uninsured. There were a lot of rising costs in
19 insurance. A lot of those issues everybody in the
20 country faced. A lot of plans about health care
21 reform. We were the public voice._ We formed to
22 be the public voice in health care issues.
23 Q Have you been executive director since
24 the organization was formed?
25 A I have. Since 1991.
283
1 Q What is the source of funding?
2 A Its a charitable foundation
3 primarily. We get some founding on a project
4 basis from state government. Not a regular
5 funding from the state government.
6 Q Ms. Tyler, please tell us your
7 educational background. Also your employment
8 background prior to being executive director of
9 Georgia Health Decisions.
10 A Masters. Bachelors. Masters in
11 Geography from the Univsity [sic] of Georgia. My first
12 employment was from 1 71 to 1 73, environmental
13 planner, Georgia Department of Transportation. My
14 second employment was at an architectural firm,
15 Stevens Wilkinson Marketing Directors. There was
16 thirteen years prior to coming to Georgia Health
17 Decisions.
18 Q Why is it that a health care related
19 organization selected somebody whose educational
20 employment background was outside of health care
21 for that position?
22 A Because the whole premise-of
23 Health Decisions was to bring the public voice
24 into the health care system without any
25 preconceived ideas about what that should be or
284
1 what the solutions for health care were. The
2 people, the Board that was forming Georgia Health
3 Decisions at that time, was afraid if they hired
4 somebody with a health care background that they
5 would come with a lot of baggage. A lot of
6 preconceived ideas with the solutions. They
7 specifically looked for someone outside of health
8 care.
9 Q Refreshing approach. Ms. Tyler, are you
10 familiar with a report by American Health
11 Decisions titled "The Quest to Die with Dignity"?
12 An analysis of American values, opinions, and
13 attitudes concerning end of life care?
14 A I was the primary author of that
15 report. It is a focus group study. I conducted
16 at least half, maybe more, of the focus groups
17 related to that study.
18 Q What was the overall purpose of this
19 report?
20 A Well, the overall purpose was to really
21 try to understand how Americans feel about health
22 care issues at the end of life. To sort of
23 identify their values, opinions, and attitudes.
24 It was funded by the Robert Wood Johnson
25 Foundation because they were interested in
285
1 beginning two initiatives. One, to educate
2 physicians about health care at end of life. The
3 other, to create a sort of statewide public
4 awareness campaign around health care issues
5 around the end of life. They wanted to know the
6 public starting point on those issues as they
7 funded those two other projects.
8 Q Was this report issued by American
9 Health Decisions rather than Georgia Health
10 Decisions, which was your organization?
11 A Sure. American Health Decisions is sort
12 of a loose affiliation of a number of state
13 associations who do similar things to what we do.
14 The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation was familiar
15 with those and called several of us to a meeting
16 together to talk about how to do this approach.
17 What expertise that American Health Decisions had
18 to do this.
19 It became clear that Georgia Health
20 Decisions was sort of the organization with the
21 most experience in this. Because it was a
22 national study, it seemed appropriate that
23 American Health Decisions be the grantee for the
24 grant, although Georgia Health Decisions sort of
25 led the effort. Wisconsin also had a small role
286
1 in the development of the study.
2 Q How much did the Robert Wood Johnson
3 Foundation pay to fund this research and report?
4 A About $250,000.
5 Q You mentioned a little bit about how the
6 report was conducted. I would like to go into
7 that in more specifics. What you mentioned is
8 something about a focus group research. Can you
9 explain a little more what that is? How the
10 methodology of the research was conducted?
11 A This is qualitative as opposed to
12 quantitative. Qualitative is often done when you
13 want to find out why people feel the way they do.
14 How do they come to the values they have. To
15 explore more the attitudes and opinions that you
16 can't get in a simple yes or no answer where you
17 can count answers.
18 So focus groups are small conversations
19 led by a trained facilitator with a predetermined
20 set of questions asked in every group so you are
21 having the same conversation with the same
22 people. The participants are randomly selected to
23 represent the cross section of people you are
24 trying to get the opinions and attitudes of.
25 The conversations are recorded, and
287
1 transcribed, and later analyzed in different ways
2 to figure out what are the recurring feelings.
3 What are the recurring attitudes and opinions of
4 people that participated.
5 Q How is it determined how many focus
6 groups you had and how many people are in them?
7 A It depends on what you are trying to
8 reach. We were trying to reach a cross section of
9 Americans. We did a certain number of groups.
10 Twelve throughout the country. Sort of randomly
11 selected cross demographics. Different ages,
12 incomes, racial backgrounds, religious
13 backgrounds.
14 We wanted to know if there were
15 differences of opinion on end of life care
16 because of age, religious background, ethnic
17 background. So we did a number of specific groups
18 with people of a certain religious background, age
19 background, or ethnic background.
20 Q How many focus groups and actual
21 participants were there in this study?
22 A Thirty-six in this study across the
23 country. About 385 participants.
24 Q Thirty-six groups with 385 participants?
25 A Yes.
288
1 Q Were there any other professionals
2 assisting you in the focus group research and data
3 collection analysis?
4 A Sure.
5 Who were those people?
6 A The primary team was a woman name Terri
7 Lofton (phonetic), a medical anthropologist, who
8 is trained to look at conversations and draw out
9 what the values or underlying conversations are.
10 A public policy analyst, Michael Perry, was
11 involved. I did part of the analysis. A
12 statistician name Frank Miller did part and an
13 ethosist [sic] from Wisconsin, Dr. Jack Stanley.
14 Q Ms. Tyler, when was that report issued?
15 A In September of 1997.
16 Q Have you participated in any further
17 research and study in this area since the
18 publication of your report?
19 A I have. Based on some of the findings
20 we had from this study, we went back to
21 and wanted to explore some of the -issues a little
22 deeper in
23 randomly in
24 with health care professionals. We most recently
25 have done eleven focus groups with family members
289
1 of patients tied in to hospitals in
2 last year. Also done similar work in North
3
4 issue.
5 Q Have you presented the findings in your
6 report to any professional organization?
7 A Quite a number.
8 Q Tell us a few.
9 A The national meeting of the American
10 Society on Aging. National Hospice Organization.
11 At John Hopkins Institute, I've been a guest
12 lecturer on this issue.
13 Q Have you lectured on end of life issues
14 before any organizations?
15 A Sure.
16 Q To your knowledge, Ms. Tyler, has there
17 ever been undertaken or published a study or
18 report in this area as extensive as "The Quest to
19 Die with Dignity"?
20 A No. No. The reason being, it's pretty
21 expensive an undertaking to do this nationwide.
22 You have to have a funder be interested in getting
23 the information, like Robert Wood Johnson was, to
24 be able to do this work.
25 Q At this time, I offer the witness as an
290
1 expert on the subject of American's values,
2 opinions, and attitudes concerning end of life
3 care.
4 THE COURT: Do you wish to voir dire?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor. I accept
6 those as expert in that area.
7 THE COURT: Excuse me?
8 MS. CAMPBELL: I accept her as an expert
9 in that particular area.
10 THE COURT: Thank you.
11 Q (By Mr. Felos) Ms. Tyler, what
12 materials have you reviewed in preparation for
13 your testimony?
14 A I reviewed paragraph ten from the
15 suggestion of bias on the part of the guardian ad
16 !item. I reread the deposition of Robert
17 Schindler, deposition of Mary Schindler, the
18 deposition of Robert Schindler, Jr. and the
19 deposition of Susan Carr.
20 Q In your research and report, did you
21 take note of the ways in which persons express
22 their desires and feelings regarding the
23 application of artificial life support and other
24 end of life medical treatment issues?
25 A Yes. I think one of the key things we
291
1 found is how difficult the conversation is about
2 death and dying. How much people avoid the
3 conversation. Generally, it's stimulated by
4 outside stimulus. It is a very short
5 conversation, unless people have had sort of a
6 family experience that leads them to have a more
7 indepth [sic] conversation on this issue, or if they are
8 in the middle of a terminal illness themselves.
9 For the most part, avoidance and very short
10 conversations.
11 Q Let's backtrack from the fact that oral
12 statements tend to be categorized by an event and
13 look at written directives.
14 A Okay.
15 Q What percentage of adult Americans have
16 living wills, if you know?
17 A That is -- there are no strong
18 statistics on that because of the issues, issues
19 of language or those kinds of things, but the best
20 estimates from people in the field are about 13 to
21 15 percent of people actually have a written
22 document. Generally those are people older --
23 over 50, over 55 -- who have had some catalyst in
24 wanting to complete a document of that nature.
25 Q Would it be fair to say that a person in
292
1 their twenties would be much less likely than the
2 national average to have a written living will or
3 directive?
4 A Absolutely. It's not a conversation
5 that people in their twenties have. it's
6 certainly not something they feel compelled to do,
7 because they are young, healthy. It's not going
8 to happen to them for years to come. Like I said,
9 there are no statistics. My personal opinion is
10 that I would be surprised if 2 percent of the
11 population in their twenties actually had a
12 written document.
13 Q Of the population in their twenties?
14 A Um-hmm.
15 Q The fact that Theresa Schiavo did not
16 have a written advanced directive specifying her
17 medical treatment wishes, because of that fact, do
18 you think it is fair to say because she did not
19 have an advanced directive that she wanted to be
20 kept alive artificially?
21 A No. Not at all. Most people who do not
22 have advanced directives would tell us when their
23 time came they would like to die naturally. The
24 main issues why people don't have them is because
25 they don't like the document. They don't
293
1 understand. They have a whole problem with the
2 legal business of putting it in writing, but they
3 trust their family members to do what they want
4 done for them.
5 Q Let's go back to the method in which
6 oral statements are made. Was that addressed
7 anywhere in your report? The issue of how
8 conversations come about?
9 A Yeah. Like I said, a lot of them are
10 started by some kind of external stimulus. I
11 marked a passage in the report that might help
12 clarify that for you. If you need to know, it is
13 on Page 18 of the report.
14 Some of those in focus groups who had
15 conversations with a local --
16 THE COURT: Stop. You read much quicker
17 than you talk. Our court reporter is super, but
18 the machine has a limitation, so slow done,
19 please.
20 A I will. Thank you. Some of those of
21 the focus groups who had coversations [sic] with the
22 loved one appeared to have not really had a
23 conversation at all, but rather to have made a
24 spontaneous observation about something they do
25 not want to happen to them. They told of vague
294
1 references to being hooked up to machines or
2 seeing a television program and having said don't
3 let that happen to me. Many of the focus groups
4 believed that is good enough.
5 When talking about loved ones, many
6 participants made comments like "they just know
7 how I feel" and "I trust them to make the right
8 decisions" suggesting they do not feel compelled
9 to write these wishes down as advanced directives
10 So for most people, some kind of
11 external stimulus. Some short conversation where
12 you say that I don't want that to ever happen to
13 me.
14 Q So I gather, based upon your research,
15 that the average American does not sit down one
16 day and go to their spouse and say, "Well, gee.
17 If I happen to be in a totally impaired condition
18 with minimal degree of consciousness, then under
19 those circumstances, this is what I'd like you to
20 do for me."?
21 A No. Not at all. First of all, you
22 know, I told you we avoid having that conversation
23 altogether anyway. We actually avoid even
24 associating with people going through death and
25 dying, unless we have to. For most people, it's
295
1 not sort of in the realm of consciousness the kind
2 of decisions that may need to be made one day.
3 The kind of decisions that should they be in that
4 place in their life, without that consent or
5 awareness. You don't have a detailed conversation
6 about specific treatments that you would or would
7 not want.
8 So they use these metaphors or
9 euphemisms like "being hooked up", "pull the
10 plug". Those kinds of things.
11 Q Now in this case, Ms. Tyler, there has
12 been evidence that Theresa Schiavo, in response to
13 her grandmother's impending death and the
14 dependency issue of her uncle, said to her husband
15 that if I had to be cared for by others, please
16 don't let me live like that. And in response to a
17 television program where somebody was severely
18 impaired or on machines, either said to a
19 sister-in-law or her husband, "Not for me. I
20 don't want to be kept alive artificially."
21 Assuming that occurred, do you have an
22 opinion whether such declarations of Theresa -
23 Schiavo were made in a manner consistent with the
24 way you found declarations to be made in your
25 report?
296
1 A Yes. I mean, they really reflect many
2 of the underlying values people bring to this
3 discussion. Sort of the value of freedom and
4 independence and self-reliance of not wanting to
5 be cared for by something else. Not wanting to be
6 a burden to family. Wanting death with dignity.
7 Wanting a quality of life that provides them some
8 level of independence. Again, I have passages
9 that I could read to you regarding those values.
10 Q Let me backtrack a little bit first.
11 A Okay.
12 Q I think you already mentioned in your
13 report that people use phrases like "hooked up on
14 machines". As you got into your focus groups and
15 probed that deeper, what did people mean when they
16 said "I don't want to be hooked up to machines"?
17 A They basically meant they don't want
18 their life artificially extended. If they can't
19 live on their own, they don't want a machine or
20 some other kind of life sustaining treatments to
21 keep them alive beyond their natural death. Like
22 again, a euphemism to all the kinds of things that
23 could be done to a person to extend their life
24 beyond their natural death.
25 Q Including artificial hydration and
297
1 nutrition?
2 A Yes.
3 Q In your focus group research, were
4 people familiar with the nature of the medical
5 devices used to sustain people? I mean, did they
6 know how a respirator worked? What has to be done
7 to intubate a patient? How artificial provision
8 of sustenance and hydration is made? Did people
9 understand the technicalities of how that was
10 done?
11 A Only those who had been through the
12 experience with a loved one or someone close to
13 them. But the normal person, lay person who has
14 never been through that, they really don't. They
15 don't have any clue and they don't want to think
16 about it or talk about it and certainly not find
17 out about it on their own.
18 They use the terms "don't put me on
19 machines". "Don't hook me up". "If it is my
20 time, pull the plug". Do you want me to sort of
21 read the report?
22 Q A euphemism which means what to them?
23 A Which means let me die a natural death.
24 When it's my time, it's my time. Sort of let me
25 go.
298
1 Q I think we touched on this. On some of
2 the factors that were included in that
3 expression. Not being a burden. Being
4 self-reliant. Let me ask it this way. What
5 factors did you find most concerned people
6 regarding end of life medical treatment and
7 application of artificial life support?
8 A Quality of life is probably the primary
9 concern. Quality of life also deals with
10 self-reliance, independence, being able to take
11 care of themselves. Not being a burden on their
12 family. Having some kind of dignity at the end of
13 their lives. Quality of life really was a key
14 factor. People define that in different ways.
15 Q Did you cite in your report -- do you
16 have any examples in your report that demonstrate
17 that concern that most people felt when using
18 these metaphors?
19 A About quality of life?
20 Q Yes.
21 A Um-hmm. While some individuals maintain
22 they could gain satisfaction from life if they
23 were aware and could only minimally communicate,
24 others contend that quality of life would be
25 conditional upon their being independent and
299
1 having some degree of mental comprehension and
2 physical ability. Being dependent on others for
3 every need envoked [sic] images of indignity and
4 humiliation.
5 Q I think you mentioned values of being
6 self-reliant or freedom and personal control.
7 Were there any examples of this?
8 A Given the uncertainty about the proper
9 usage and benefits of medical technology, many
10 participants feared they or a loved one may remain
11 on life support without the possibility of
12 regaining a semblance of normal life, being in a
13 vegetative state or unconsciously aware kept on
14 life support artificially. Being hooked in a trap
15 which they are ensnared by dependency to the wires
16 that plug them into an exterior power source and
17 food tubes that deliver food and oxygen.
18 This entrapment occurs because they no
19 longer have control of choices as individuals, but
20 are subordinate to the rules and procedures of
21 medical and legal institutions. So a lot of
22 conversation about that.
23 Q Were these prevalent, or consistent
24 themes that you found among individuals?
25 A Very consistent. I would say that it
300
1 surprised me, the consistency with which the
2 people talk about that. When it is their time,
3 they would like to have a natural death. They
4 don't want to be hooked up to machines. They want
5 to sort of go naturally.
6 This issue of self-reliance and
7 independence and being a burden is really quite
8 prevalent.
9 Q Was there any themes, or did the fact of
10 the probability of recovering, factor into a
11 person's feelings as to whether they would want
12 artificial life support?
13 A Certainly. I mean, people don't say
14 that they never want any kind of life support if
15 it can give them a normal quality of life. If it
16 can return them to some quality of life, they
17 certainly will do what they call try it for a
18 while.
19 What they really don't want, when people
20 say I don't want to be on machines, they don't
21 necessarily mean I don't want to be on a machine
22 ever, but they don't want to live on machines is
23 what they mean. To be on them to prolong death
24 when death is, would be the natural extension of
25 what happens to them.
301
1 Q Or when there is no hope of improvement?
2 A When there is no hope of improvement.
3 Q Did you come across any themes in your
4 report about how a patient felt or person felt
5 about their personal appearance about not wanting
6 to be seen by others if they were in an impaired
7 or unconscious state?
8 A There was sort of an under theme of that
9 that came out. We did not pursue it a lot because
10 it did not become obvious until we had read a lot
11 of the transcripts, but there were a number of
12 people, because of a control issue, who did not
13 want to die in front of somebody because they
14 don't like to be seen as vulnerable and weak. So,
15 yes. It was not as prevalent a theme as many of
16 the other themes that came out of the study.
17 Q In your opinion, Ms. Tyler, were the
18 oral declarations as relayed to you of Theresa
19 Schiavo consistent or inconsistent of the
20 predominant values of the persons found in your
21 report?
22 A Exactly what we expected, particularly
23 for someone her age. That she would not have had
24 an intense conversation about this issue, that
25 her conversation would have been the result of a
302
1 personal illness, an uncle, a grandmother's
2 illness, a television show. Somebody that they
3 know.
4 That it would have been short
5 conversations like I would not want to live that
6 way. I would not want people to take care of me.
7 I would not want to be hooked up. If that happens
8 to me, pull the plug. Those are typical kinds of
9 conversations. Yes, it would be a typical way
10 that people would convey their wishes on this
11 issue.
12 Q You may recall in the depositions of Mr.
13 and Mrs. Schindler and their daughter, Susan, and
14 son, Robert, statements to the effect that if they
15 were in a permanent or vegetative state with no
16 hope of recovery that they would want all medical
17 treatments whatsoever to keep them alive. I think
18 three out of the four said if they developed
19 gangerine [sic] and needed to have limbs amputated to
20 maintain life in that condition, they would do so
21 rather than choose to die. Do you recall those
22 statements?
23 A I do.
24 Q In your research and interviews and
25 focus groups of hundreds of people, have you ever
303
1 come across a belief or expression that extreme?
2 A I have not. We certainly had people
3 that say, yes, I want to be kept alive, but not to
4 the extreme that they want amputation or surgery
5 or anything like that if they were in a vegetative
6 state.
7 Q In the deposition of Mrs. Schindler,
8 she mentioned that if she was in that condition, a
9 permanent vegetative state, even if the medical
10 treatment impoverished her family, she would still
11 want it. Do you recall that statement?
12 A I do.
13 Q Was the cost of care and burden on a
14 family, financial burden on a family, something
15 that was a theme that came up in your research?
16 A Very much so. As a matter of fact, when
17 they talked about being a burden, the first thing
18 they talk about is a financial burden and not
19 wanting to exhaust family resources to take care
20 of me if there is no hope of recovery. I would
21 not want my family to be left financially
22 strapped. I would not want to use up all our
23 resources.
24 So being a burden sort of starts with
25 being a financial burden and working its way
304
1 through to be a physical and emotional burden.
2 Q I would like to read to you from Mary
3 Schindler's deposition of August 12, 1999. Page
4 39, Line 16.
5 Question. Well, in your mind, does
6 there come a point in time where the experience of
7 discomfort or pain on the part of the patient
8 becomes a factor in deciding whether to remove
9 life support?
10 Answer. No.
11 Were the persons in your focus groups at
12 all concerned about suffering pain in end of life
13 care and how that issue of pain related to
14 continued artificial treatment?
15 A Certainly. Pain is -- we talked to
16 people about how far they would go to pursue care
17 and what should be done as far as treatment of
18 people with terminal illness. One of the first
19 things is do whatever you can to manage pain.
20 That is everyone's primary concern. Both as a
21 patient and as a family member, that is a primary
22 concern.
23 The compassion of not wanting someone to
24 be in pain, they would say, "I don't care. Give
25 them as much pain relief as they need, even if it
305
1 hastens death, even if it makes them sort of
2 unconscious, because I don't want to see my loved
3 one suffer." So pain is really a key issue with
4 people who are talking about how far to pursue
5 care and how much pain medication to administer.
6 Q In determining in your study, for the
7 average person in determining if a person
8 determined they did not want to be kept alive
9 artificially, they wanted to go when their time
10 came, they did not want to be taken care of by
11 others, they did not want to be a burden, did you
12 see much distinction in that belief for a patient
13 who might be in a vegetative state as opposed to a
14 patient who might be significantly and permanently
15 impaired?
16 A Certainly. Because when you talk about
17 quality of life, cognizance seems to be a key
18 there. You know, if people can be cognizant and
19 can be aware and communicate in some way with
20 their loved ones, many people define that as
21 quality of live to continue as opposed to when you
22 sort of lose that level of cognizance, that
23 ability to communicate in any way to have
24 meaningful exchanges.
25 Q What did they mean by communicate and
306
1 have meaningful exchanges?
2 A Let me see if I can find some examples
3 that might help that. The importance of
4 self-reliance was most evident in participants'
5 discussion concerning quality of life. This
6 feeling was dramatically expressed by a guy in New
7 Orleans who confided "I really, truly would rather
8 be dead than to sit down and have somebody do just
9 about everything for me."
10 Ed Leeman (phonetic) from
11 defined quality of life as being able to care for
12 your basic needs. Feed yourself. Go to the
13 bathroom. Get up and move about. Do things for
14 yourself. As long as you don't consider yourself
15 a burden on people. A man from
16 would not want anyone to take care of him, and an
17
18 to depend on someone else. Those are the kinds of
19 ways people talked about this quality of life.
20 Q Well, when people said, gee, I would
21 want to stay alive if I could communicate, what
22 did they mean? Did they mean talking?
23 Conversation?
24 A No. They did not necessarily have to
25 have conversations. What they had to have is some
307
1 cue of I'm sending you a signal; I'm sending you
2 one back. We understand what is going on with
3 each other. I'm conveying to you my wishes. A
4 lot of times you can still do that even if you
5 can't talk. You can write it down or it's a
6 conveying of wishes. Conveying an exchange of
7 thought processes.
8 MR. FELOS: I have no further
9 questions. Thank you.
10 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell, cross-
11 examination?
12 CROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
14 Q Thank you. Good morning, Ms. Tyler. My
15 name is Pam Campbell. I am the attorney for Mr.
16 and Mrs. Schindler, the parents of Theresa
17 Schiavo.
18 A Certainly.
19 Q Is there an organization similar to
20 yours in
21 A There is not a Florida Health
22 Decisions. There is an organization called Aging
23 with Dignity that does some of the similar kinds
24 of work around health care at end of life helping
25 people prepare and-have conversations.
308
1 Q Did they participate in this national
2 study?
3 A They did not.
4 Q Out of your study, there were 385
5 participants?
6 A Um-hmm.
7 Q So your comments and readings this
8 morning from the different parts of the study are
9 based on these 385 participants?
10 A They are.
11 Q What was the average age of the
12 participant?
13 A I can't tell you. What we did was, for
14 twelve of the groups, we did a cross section of
15 the American population and recruited individuals
16 to represent the different age groups of the
17 population. Then we did some groups specifically
18 with participants that were 18 to 34; 35 to 55;
19 55 to 65 and over 65. That way we did not ever
20 alienate the average age of all groups together.
21 Q Did you notice a distinction in people
22 of the age group of 25 to 35 versus older people
23 70 and up?
24 A There was some very, very small
25 distinctions. What we really came away from this
309
1 report feeling was the magnitude of which most of
2 the major themes out of the report were prevalent
3 throughout the society, throughout age groups,
4 throughout the religious groups, throughout the
5 ethnic groups.
6 The differences we saw were on specific
7 issues like physician assisted suicide and very
8 specific things like that. The broad feelings,
9 values, were pretty widely held throughout the
10 population.
11 Q Were any of these participants from
12 Florida?
13 A Yes. They were.
14 Q Do you know how many?
15 A We did two focus groups in Florida. So
16 there must have been about 24 to 28. Something
17 like that.
18 Q How did you become a participant in the
19 study?
20 A Because of the prior work that we have
21 done at Georgia Health Decisions, we have been
22 doing this work in Georgia since 1991 and trying
23 to understand citizen's values around health care,
24 we have held probably 700 to 800 focus groups in
25 Georgia. We held thousands of community forums.
310
1 Q My question is really more how would a
2 person become a participant in this study?
3 A They were randomly recruited from a call
4 List. When we go into the city, we contract with
5 an independent contractor that does this kind of
6 thing for a living. They randomly recruited
7 people. They tell them what the conversation is
8 going to be. We pay participants to come to get a
9 cross section of people. If need be, we actually
10 go out and provide transportation, if people have
11 trouble getting there, to try to make sure we do
12 get a good cross section of individuals.
13 Q Was there a type of average pay for
14 participants to be involved?
15 A Yes. It was between 35 to $50.
16 Generally, if you were in a rural area, you pay
17 somebody $35. If you were in
18 had to pay a little more to try to get -- to
19 entice them.
20 Q Would the focus groups be at one
21 particular setting?
22 A Yes.
23 Q So they received anywhere from 35 to $55
24 for an afternoon of discussion?
25 1 A It was two-and-a-half hours. Everybody
311
1 in one focus group would get paid the same amount
2 of money. So if it were in
3 might have gotten $35. If you were in
4 City, you might have gotten $50.
5 Q In your statistical configuration, was
6 there any way to know or question these people as
7 to their personal experience with end of life
8 decisions?
9 A We did. In addition to the focus
10 groups, we had 29 participants that were either
11 terminally ill at the time or had a family member
12 or someone who recently died that we did indepth [sic]
13 telephone interviews with, one-on-one, to get that
14 personal experience of, recent experience of
15 people going through that situation.
16 But when you randomly recruit people,
17 you will get the cross section of people who have
18 had that experience; who have not had the
19 experience. Going through it all, those
20 experiences come to the table in this kind of
21 research.
22 Q Do you know the statistics as far as how
23 many people have gone through the experience of a
24 loved one as opposed to -- personal experience as
25 opposed to an ill person?
312
1 A I don't. Because this is quantitative [sic]
2 research. You don't have the quantatative [sic] numbers
3 that you are getting at. You can't say from focus
4 group research, you can't say therefore 65 percent
5 of the people in the country feel this way. It is
6 not that kind of research. It is more when you
7 are trying to get to what underlies people's
8 values. What they say. Why they say it.
9 Q Where were the two focus groups in
10
11 A I think one was in
12 was in
13 Q Did you have a specific focus group on
14 the Catholic faith?
15 A We did.
16 Q How many people participated in that
17 group?
18 A We had two groups. So again, there
19 would have been somewhere between 24 and 28.
20 Q Did you notice -- what other types of
21 faiths did you have focus groups tan?
22 A Protestant, Jewish and Muslim.
23 Q Did you notice any significant
24 difference in the Catholics over --
25 A Not on the primary issues. Again, there
313
1 were only like seven very specific issues that we
2 saw any differences among any of the categories.
3 Let's see. The Catholic response for this group
4 shows that they are more likely to trust
5 physicians. They are somewhat more comfortable
6 with discussions about death. More likely to
7 agree that physicians should initiate end of life
8 discussions and less likely to support mandatory
9 living wills. They are split in support for
10 physician assisted suicide.
11 So those are the only distinctions we
12 could attach to someone being Catholic, as opposed
13 to another religion.
14 Q Was part of that focus group or one of
15 the questions for them to discuss the issue of
16 artificial feeding? Nutrition and hydration?
17 A We did not discuss specific treatments
18 about extension of life because we were getting
19 more at general ideas of opinions and attitudes,
20 and because most people are not that familiar with
21 these specific kinds of treatments.
22 But when we ask -- when people would
23 make these comments about pulling the plug, we
24 would ask what does that mean to you. We would
25 ask questions like would that also include
314
1 artificial feedings. Those kind of things.
2 Q Did you find in the different focus
3 groups a difference between people's values and
4 beliefs on life sustaining as to a ventilator
5 versus food? Artificial sustenance?
6 A Not in general. No. No. If the -
7 sort of the determining factor is if anything is
8 sort of keeping me alive and I can't get better,
9 if I'm not going to regain a quality of life, then
10 I would not generally, the prevailing attitude is
11 I would not want that.
12 So the key, the key is is there a hope
13 for me to get better. Would I regain a quality of
14 life. If I'm not going to do that, don't do
15 anything to prolong my death.
16 Q Was there a specific question for these
17 groups to discuss the distinction between the
18 differences of a ventilator versus artificial
19 sustenance?
20 A No.
21 Q So your comments pertaining to that are
22 from the comments that would have been asked
23 voluntarily to pursue a further question?
24 A Right. When the topic would come to the
25 table, the facilitator would ask the question what
315
1 does that mean to you.
2 Q These were groups of about twelve people
3 each?
4 A Yeah. Twelve to fourteen.
5 Q Have you ever met Theresa Schiavo?
6 A I have not.
7 Q Have you met with her parents?
8 A I have not.
9 Q You stated that you had reviewed
10 paragraph eleven of the suggestion of bias on the
11 part of the guardian ad litem; is that correct?
12 A Um-hmm. Let me make sure that was the
13 paragraph that I -- paragraph ten.
14 Q Ten.
15 A Um-hmm.
16 Q Did you read the report of the guardian
17 ad litem?
18 A I did not.
19 Q Were you informed in any way about
20 comments that Theresa would have made pertaining
21 to maintaining life on a feeding tube or any kind
22 of artificial sustenance?
23 A No. No. I read this and I read the
24 depositions.
25 Q So you were not given any of the
316
1 information that the parents would have thought
2 their daughter's wishes would be?
3 A No. Well, other than what is in the
4 deposition. I did read the depositions.
5 Q Which were the depositions taken by
6 Mr. Felos; correct?
7 A I assume.
8 Q Would the credibility of any of the
9 statements contained in paragraph ten, would that
10 change your opinion as to, one way or the other,
11 as to whether or not Theresa fell within the norm
12 of your study?
13 A Paragraph ten basically, to me, said
14 this is how she had her conversation. That it was
15 a response to a stimulus. It was reaction to a
16 loved one that was ill. It was in reaction to an
17 uncle or grandmother. So from reading those
18 paragraphs, those pages, it was a typical way that
19 people have conversations.
20 Q Would it also be typical if she made
21 comments the other way?
22 A It would have been typical in the
23 stimulus for the conversation, some external
24 stimulus. There are people who do say I want to
25 be kept alive no matter what, but it also would
317
1 probably be stimulated by some external stimulus
2 like a TV show. Like a loved one who is ill.
3 Particularly for somebody in that age group.
4 They do not normally sit down and
5 inititate [sic] a conversation about, gee, one day I may
6 be in a car wreck or terminally ill and if that
7 happens, I want feeding tubes. I want blood
8 products. It is just not what people, even in
9 their fifties, normally do. So having a stimulus
10 is a catalyst, really, for having these
11 conversations.
12 Q So based on your experience and the
13 study you have been involved in, the typical part
14 is Theresa's making comments, one way or the
15 other, related to a relative or a TV show?
16 A Yes. Stimulants. The prevalent
17 attitude. Like I said, I do not know Theresa, so
18 I can't testify about her comments, but prevalent
19 attitudes throughout the population tend to go
20 toward not wanting to prolong life through
21 artificial means.
22 Q In your focus groups, did you make any
23 distinction on end of life versus a parent versus
24 the end of life of a child?
25 A We did not. That is because when I say
318
1 child, I mean somebody under 18.
2 Q Excuse me. I'll narrow it. A child
3 being from the prospective of a parent, having
4 your own parent die versus your own child die.
5 A I think that, you know, a loved one,
6 having a loved one die or to be in that situation
7 is a very emotional kind of thing. That people
8 often, when they are having to struggle with these
9 decisions, are struggling from the viewpoint of
10 loss and emotional loss on their own part rather
11 than what is the best care, what is the best thing
12 for the loved one.
13 Anybody over age, you know -- it became
14 clear that anybody over 18 has the right to make
15 decisions for themselves. The laws in Georgia and
16 I assume in Florida give people the right, over
17 18, to make decisions on how far they want to
18 extend their life. The primary thing that came
19 out is if those wishes are known, then family
20 members, physicians, whoever else, should be
21 obligated to follow those wishes, if there is some
22 way to understand those wishes.
23 Q Are you familiar with the financial
24 issues of this case?
25 A No. Not really. No.
319
1 Q Are you aware whether or not there is
2 any financial burden or hardship on anyone for
3 Theresa's care?
4 A No. I'm not aware of that.
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. No other
6 questions.
7 THE COURT: Redirect?
8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. FELOS:
10 Q You were asked about your focus group of
11 Catholics. The prevalent themes that you talked
12 about on direct examination, I want to ask you if
13 they pertain to Catholics. The prevalent theme of
14 self-reliance, that people don't want to be
15 maintained artificially if they are incontinent,
16 can't eat, can't brush their hair, can't brush
17 their teeth, if they are totally dependent, is
18 that any different for Catholics?
19 A No.
20 Q The prevalent theme that artificial life
21 support was not deemed to be considered beneficial
22 if there was no hope of recovery, was that any
23 different for Catholics?
24 A No.
25 Q The prevalent theme regarding quality of
320
1 life, that if you can't make your wishes known, if
2 you can't communicate, if you can't have an
3 interchange, if you can't have some enjoyment of
4 life, that people don't want to be maintained
5 artificially, is that any different for Catholics?
6 A No.
7 Q You were asked about the typicality of
8 Theresa's expressions and that they were triggered
9 by a catalyst and that's how people make them.
10 Regarding the content of her expression as relayed
11 to you, in your opinion, were they typical of the
12 comments, the prevalent comments in your report?
13 A Very prevalent. I would say that, you
14 know, of the 385 people that we talked to maybe a
15 handful of them would say no matter what, I want
16 to be kept alive. Put me on machines. You know.
17 So there were just -- the other attitude
18 of when it's my time, it's my time, if there is no
19 hope of recovery, quality of life was so prevalent
20 in those conversations. It really was.
21 Q Talking about younger people, did you
22 have any participants in their twenties?
23 A Yes. In two focus groups all
24 participants were 18 to 34 and scattered
25 throughout the other groups as well.
321
1 Q Was there any difference in terms of the
2 prevelant [sic] attitudes among the younger people than
3 the older people?
4 A One specific one that is not too
5 relative to this case is that they were less
6 fearful of talking about death, and that they were
7 more skeptical of physicians. Just very odd
8 things like that. Nothing on the prevalent themes
9 or values and attitudes.
10 Q You were asked about the number of focus
11 groups. How people were selected. You had social
12 scientists working on this report?
13 A We did.
14 Q You had a statistician working on this
15 report?
16 A We did.
17 Q Did those persons and yourself take any
18 care to make sure that you had enough people,
19 enough focus groups in enough areas, so this would
20 be accepted as a social science work rather than
21 an anecdotal reporting of what people said?
22 A Absolutely. There was a lot of thought
23 in the preparation where we would go. Who the
24 facilitators would like for each group and
25 following through with each group to make sure
322
1 that we would -- we stay on top of it. Recruiting
2 for every group and looking at demographics to
3 make sure they were the cross section we need.
4 I have done this work for nine years.
5 The first lesson I learned is that if people don't
6 like what is in the report, they will question
7 your methodology. So you better have that tight
8 or you don't have much group to stand on. This
9 report has been accepted very well across the
10 country as a good social science report.
11 MR. FELOS: Thank you.
12 THE COURT: Any recross?
13 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. You may
15 I stand down. Further witnesses?
16 MR. FELOS: No further witnesses at this
17 time. We do have on our subpoena and listed as a
18 witness Mr. Pearse, but opposing counsel and I
19 have agreed, rather than have Mr. Pearse come
20 twice, once now and then called in respondent's
21 case, that respondents will call Mr. Pearse and I
22 can get my questions in during cross-examination.
23 I wanted to inform the Court of that.
24 The only other thing I had at this time
25 in the case, before we close, is the introduction
323
1 of the suggestion of bias. Your Honor, what
2 number are we up to?
3 THE COURT: I believe that is Number
4 Seven. Is there an objection?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Thank you. It will be
7 received. With this having been received, Mr.
8 Felos, does the petitioner rest?
9 MR. FELOS: One moment. Let me go
10 through my list here. Yes. That is it at this
11 time.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 MS. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, since its
14 quarter of 11:00, my first witness is Mary
15 Schindler and I think she will take quite a
16 while. I would suggest an early lunch hour and
17 then come back. I'll begin with her. Then that
18 will give us appropriate time, rather than break
19 her testimony up.
20 THE COURT: It is time for a break. The
21 bailiff reminded me it is overdue. I have
22 something to do over the noon hour, so we'll just
23 be back at 1:00. It does make sense for us to
24 break until then probably, rather than have her on
25 for an hour, then you cannot talk to her over the
324
1 noon hour. So why don't we stand in recess until
2 one o'clock.
3 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit court
5 is in recess until one o'clock.
6 AKEN AT 10 : 50 A.M.
7 (THEREUPON, A RECESS WAS
8 UNTIL 1 : 00 P.M. )
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325
1 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
2 PROBATE DIVISION CASE NO. 90-2908-GD3
3
4 IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
5 Incapacitated.
6
7 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, AS GUARDIAN OF THE PERSON OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
8 Petitioner,
9 APPEAL vs.
10 ROBERT SCHINDLER AND MARY SCHINDLER,
11 Respondents.
12
13 BEFORE: GEORGE W. GREER Circuit Court Judge
14 PLACE: Clearwater Courthouse
15 Clearwater, FL 33756
16 DATE: January 25, 2000
17 TIME: 1: 00 P.M.
18 REPORTED BY: Beth Ann Erickson, RPR Court Reporter
19 Notary Public
20 TRIAL
21
22 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
23 501 South Fort Harrison Clearwater, Florida 33756
24 (8131) 464-4858 Volume III Pages 325 - 515
25
326
APPEARANCES:
GEORGE C. FELOS, ESQUIRE
CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
640 Douglas Avenue
Dunedin, FL 34698
Attorneys for Petitioner
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
The Alexander Building
535 Central Avenue
Suite 403
St. Petersburg, FL 33701
Attorney for Respondents
INDEX
Page
WITNESS
MARY SCHINDLER
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 328
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 398
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 439
Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 444
Further Redirect Examination 464
Further Recross-Examination 468
MICHAEL VITADAMO
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 446
Voir Dire Examination by Mr. Felos 449
Direct Examination Continued 462
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 463
ROBERT SCHINDLER, JR.
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 475
Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 492
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 510
EXHIBITS
Page
Respondent's Exhibit 1 463
327
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
3 THE COURT: Be seated, please.
4 THE BAILIFF: Circuit court is back in
5 session.
6 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell, are
7 respondents ready to proceed?
8 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you very much.
9 Your Honor, I first would like to call Mary
10 Schindler to the stand.
11 THE BAILIFF: Stop right here. Face the
12 judge. Raise your right hand to receive the oath.
13 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
14 THE COURT.)
15 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. Have a
16 seat here.
17 THE BAILIFF: Be seated in the witness
18 box, please.
19 MS. CAMPBELL: I've taken the liberty of
20 moving the TV/VCR here, rather than have it lugged
21 in at the appropriate time. Does that block any
22 of your view? Should I move it back?
23 MR. FEL OS : No.
24 MS. CAMPBELL: It will save the time of
25 getting it lugged in.
328
1 THE COURT: Fine.
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MS . CAMPBELL :
4 Q Please state your full name.
5 A Mary Schindler.
6 Q What is your address?
7 A 6372 Palma Del Mar, St. Pete.
8 Q You have a soft voice. You need to
9 speak up.
10 A Okay.
11 Q How long have you lived at that address?
12 A Six years.
13 Q Are you married to Bob Schindler?
14 A Yes. I am.
15 Q How long have you been married?
16 A Thirty-seven years.
17 Q Do you have children?
18 A Yes.
19 Q what are their names and ages?
20 A Terri is 36, Bobby is 35, and Suzanne is
21 31
22 Q Do they all live here in the area?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Where did you raise your family?
25 A In a suburb of Philadelphia.
329
1 Q How would you describe the children
2 growing up?
3 A They were happy, healthy, normal
4 children.
5 Q What was your family life like? What
6 kind of activities did you do?
7 A We used to go on vacations together. We
8 used to go to the zoo. Used to take them on
9 trips.
10 Q Did you work outside the home?
11 A No. I did not.
12 Q Did you -- were you active in any church
13 activities?
14 A I used to help with the school that the
15 kids used to go to called Our Lady of Good
16 Counsel. I used to help up there during the week.
17 Q Are you currently employed?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Where are you employed?
20 A I manage a Hallmark store on St. Pete
21 Beach.
22 Q When the children were growing up, was
23 your husband, Bob, employed?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What did he do?
330
1 A He was a saleman [sic] for his brother for a
2 while. Then he owned his own business.
3 Q What kind of business was that?
a A A material handling business.
5 Q What was Terri like as a child?
6 A Terri was a little bit heavy. She was
7 happy. She loved to do things. She was a little
8 bit shy, but all in all she was a great child.
9 Q Did she have any unusual illnesses?
10 A She used to have allergies a lot growing
11 up. Little rashes.
12 Q Where did she go to high school?
13 A High school she went to Arch Bishop Boyd
14 for Girls in
15 Q Did she go to college?
16 A Not right after she graduated. I think
17 she went to two years at Bucks County Community
18 College.
19 Q When did she meet Michael Schiavo?
20 A I guess in about 1 82.
21 Q Was she going to Bucks Community?
22 A Yes. She met him there.
23 Q Did you like Michael?
24 A Yes.
25 Q When did they get married?
331
1 A November 10, 1984.
2 Q What kind of wedding was it?
3 A A very 'Large wedding. Very happy.
4 Terri, that was her dream wedding. She always
5 wanted a big wedding.
6 Q Where was she married?
7 A The church was Our Lady of Counsel.
8 Then we had at reception at a restaurant in South
9 Hampton.
10 Q Did they go on a honeymoon?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Where?
13 A St. Petersburg, Florida.
14 Q Where did they stay?
15 A At our condo.
16 Q Did you live in the condo in
17 St. Petersburg?
18 A No. We didn't live there then.
19 Q What was the purpose of your owning the
20 condo?
21 A We used to use it for vacations.
22 Q Do you know how they got to Florida?
23 A They flew.
24 Q How long was their honeymoon?
25 A A week.
332
1 Q Was Terri employed at the time?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Where?
4 A Prudential Insurance.
5 Q What did she do there?
6 A She helped to -- they took care of the
7 salesmen. Each salesman had different girls that
8 would help them. Like a secretary.
9 Q Was Michael employed at the time?
10 A Yes.
11 Q What was he doing?
12 A He worked at McDonald's.
13 Q How often did you come to your
14 condominium in St. Petersburg?
15 A On vacation. Holidays. Easter.
16 Christmas. Summers.
17 Q The year after they were married, 1985,
18 did you come to the condo in St. Petersburg during
19 that year?
20 A Did I come? No.
21 Q Did Terri or Michael come to the condo
22 in 1985?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you recall when?
25 A October.
333
1 Q Did they come at any other time during
2 1985?
3 A February.
4 Q How was it that you remember those
5 dates?
6 A Well, the October date they came, my
7 mother-in-law was in the hospital in October. But
8 she just went in for, I think she had a problem
9 with electrolytes. She went in then. Terri asked
10 if it was -- I thought it was okay. I said yeah.
11 That's fine. Mom is not really, really sick. So
12 they came down by train. Terri, Michael, and
13 Michael's brother, Brian.
14 Q That was October of 1985?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Who is Catherine Schindler?
17 A Catherine Schindler was my husband's
18 mother.
19 Q Where did she live during that time?
20 A She used to live in Philadelphia in the
21 city, but in 1969 when Bob's brother's wife and
22 child got killed by a train, she moved in with my
23 brother-in-law to help take care of the two girls
24 that he still had at home, and him.
25 Q So at the time in October of '85, she
334
1 was living close to you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q were you close with Mrs. Schindler?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Was Terri close with Mrs. Schindler?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you elaborate on the hospital visit
8 Mrs. Schindler had in October of 1 85?
9 A The visit, she just went in to have some
10 tests done because she was not feeling well and
11 they said her electrolytes were a little off. So
12 I think three or four days. Two or three days.
13 Somewhere.
14 Q Was it a serious condition?
15 A No.
16 Q When did Mrs. Schindler die?
17 A She died in March of '86.
18 Q The following year?
19 A Yes.
20 Q How long was she in the hospital before
21 she died for her last illness?
22 A Two weeks. About two weeks.
23 Q Do you know what was wrong with her?
24 A When she went in, she had pneumonia.
25 Then just things started happening to her. Things
335
1 starting to shut done.
2 Q Was she on any life support?
3 A Toward the end she was.
4 Q What type of life support?
5 A She was on a ventilator.
6 Q Were you there when she passed away?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Was Terri there when she passed away?
9 A Yes.
10 Q You mentioned Bob's brother?
11 A Yes.
12 Q what is his name?
13 A Fred.
14 Q Fred Schindler?
15 A Yes.
16 Q, Tell us about Fred Schindler.
17 A Fred had a business. In 1980, he had a
18 car accident and he was, he was in a coma for a
19 few days and he had some brain damage, a little
20 brain damage, and his right side was paralyzed.
21 And he went to a rehab center in Colorado and had
22 some rehab done. Then he came home.
23 Q Do you recall how long he was in the
24 hospital?
25 A When he had the accident?
336
1 Q Yes.
2 A Maybe three weeks.
3 Q Did he have any permanent damage?
4 A Yes. His right side was paralyzed, but
5 he could still walk. In the beginning, he used a
6 cane after he came back from Colorado. And for a
7 little while, he used to drag his foot a little
8 bit, but then that stopped. He drove a car. He
9 ran his own business.
10 Q So you are not aware of anybody having
11 to step in and take care of him from a physical
12 standpoint?
13 A No. He lived by himself after my
14 mother-in-law died.
15 Q When did Terri and Michael move to
16 Florida?
17 A I think it was in the spring of 1 86.
18 Q Was it after your mother-in-law died?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Where did they live?
21 A They lived in our condo in Isla.
22 Q How did that come about?
23 A Terri asked her dad if they moved down,
24 if before they got, you know, before they looked
25 for a job, if they could spend some time living in
337
1 the condo. And her dad said yes.
2 Q Were you making arrangements to move to
3 Florida at that time, too?
4 A Yes.
5 Q When did you move to Florida?
6 A We moved in June of 1 86.
7 Q The same year?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did anyone move with you?
10 A My daughter, Suzanne.
11 Q And your husband?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Where did you all live?
14 A Because Michael and Terri were living in
15 the condo, we rented a townhouse in Tierra Verde.
16 Q How long did you live there?
17 A About a year.
18 Q Were you employed when you moved to
19 Florida?
20 A No. Not in the beginning.
21 Q Was your husband, Bob, employed?
22 A No.
23 Q Was Terri employed after she moved to
24 Florida?
25 A Not for a while. She finally did get a
338
1 job at Prudential. They like transferred her from
2 Philly to Florida.
3 Q Was your mother living with you at that
4 time?
5 A My mother was living with me after I
6 moved from the Tierra Verde house.
7 Q Where did you move after the Tierra
8 Verde house?
9 A We lived in a house on 55th Street on
10 St. Pete Beach.
11 Q What is your mother's name?
12 A Cecilia Tomarro (phonetic).
13 Q What was her condition at the time she
14 was living with you?
15 A At the time she was living with me, she
16 had had a stroke. She was in a wheelchair. She
17 had a mastectomy and she was starting with
18 Parkinson's disease.
19 Q Did she require medical assistance?
20 A I could handle her for -- I could take
21 care of her for a little while, but it got to be a
22 little hard for me to do it.
23 Q Did you have a nurse come in to assist
24 you?
25 A No.
339
1 Q When it became difficult for you, what
2 happened at that time with your mother?
3 A Then my brother, who does not live in
4 Florida, I consulted him and we decided we better
5 put her in a nursing home.
6 Q Where did you move her to?
7 A Majestic Towers.
8 Q When was that?
9 A I think it was '87.
10 Q Was Terri close to your mother?
11 A Yes. Very close.
12 Q Would you ever go and visit your mother
13 at Majestic Towers?
14 A Yes. I would go. Terri would go. We
15 would go together.
16 Q How often would you go?
17 A I would go everyday. Sometimes she'd
18 stop after work. Most of the time she went on
19 weekends.
20 Q Describe the residence at Majestic
21 Towers.
22 A The residence was a nursing home. They
23 had some people that could do some stuff for
24 themselves and there was people on ventilators.
25 There was people on feeding tubes. There was
340
1 people in wheelchairs. All kinds of people.
2 Q Did you also work at Majestic Towers?
3 A Later on, I think a year-and-a-half, two
4 years later, I helped the activities director. I
5 started working there.
6 Q Did you have any special training to
7 assist the activities director?
8 A No. I did not. She did.
9 Q The activities director?
10 A Right.
11 Q What type of training did the activities
12 director have?
13 A They have to go through two courses. I
14 think a year-and-a-half, two year course, to be an
15 activity director in a nursing home.
16 Q What kind of responsibility did you have
17 as assistant?
18 A I used to help with patients taking them
19 to activities, like cards. We played cards.
20 Bingo. We used to have parties. Birthday
21 parties. At Christmas time we had celebrations.
22 All different things.
23 Q Did Terri assist you with any of those?
24 A A lot of the times, yes. She used to
25 come with me. Help me.
341
1 Q When did your mother pass away?
2 A My mom passed away in '94. April of
3 '94.
4 Q So was your mother still living at
5 Majestic Towers at the time of Terri's accident?
6 A Yes.
7 Q During these early years in Florida,
8 describe your relationship with Terri.
9 A Terri and I were very close. She used
10 to call me after work. I would see her almost
11 every weekend.
12 Q How often would you talk to her on the
13 phone on a weekly basis?
14 A Every night.
15 Q How often would you see her?
16 A Most of the times on the weekends.
17 Saturdays and Sundays.
18 Q Was there any particular reason for
19 that?
20 A No. We were just close and just spent
21 time together.
22 Q What was your relationship with Michael
23 like at that time?
24 A It was fine. We had a good
25 relationship.
342
1 Q Would Terri often visit your house with
2 Michael?
3 A Yeah. Sometimes if Mike was not
4 working.
5 Q When did Terri and Michael move out of
6 your condominium?
7 A They moved out in, I think it was around
8 in '88, 1989. Somewhere around there.
9 Q Can you have a time frame in reference
10 to the accident?
11 A Maybe about -- moved out of my
12 condominium?
13 Q Um-hmm.
14 A Maybe about two years before her
15 accident.
16 Q Was there any particular reason why they
17 moved out of the condominium?
18 A Well, we were having some financial
19 problems and we had to move back into our condo.
20 My husband asked, said they should try to find
21 their own apartment.
22 Q What kind of financial difficulties were.
23 you having?
24 A We had just went through a bankruptcy.
25 We were having some problems, so we had to move
343
1 back into the condo because we could not do, pay
2 two mortgages.
3 Q Did Terri and Michael pay you rent for
4 living in the condominium?
5 A Um, in the beginning.
6 Q Who basically handled the finances in
7 your family?
8 A My husband.
9 Q Were you working in 1989?
10 A Yes. I was working at a place called
11 Gigi's. After our furniture business went under,
12 then I went and worked at a dress shop on St. Pete
13 Beach.
14 Q After Terri and Michael moved into their
15 own apartment, did that change your relationship
16 with Terri?
17 A No.
18 Q You still continued to see her the same
19 amount of time?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did you do anything particular on the
22 weekends with Terri?
23 A Well, Saturdays we went to mass. She
24 used to go with us. After mass, we maybe went to
25 dinner. Sundays, not really. Sometimes visit
344
1 some people or just maybe go to a movie.
2 Q Where did you go to mass?
3 A St. John's on St. Pete Beach.
4 Q Would you take communion?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Did you participate in confession?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Did Terri ever talk with you about her
9 relationship with Michael?
10 A A little.
11 Q Do you recall any of the specific
12 conversations?
13 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. from
14 Number one, as to relevance. And I'm citing 568 So.2d 16. It says
15 the Browning case at
16 because the only issue before the court is a
17 determination of the patient's wishes, challenges
18 generally will be limited to that issue. Evidence
19 on other issues, generally, would have been
20 irrelevant to the only issue to be decided, the
21 patient's wishes.
22 That is what we are here about. There
23 are certainly some issues of credibility of
24 witnesses, but I don't see how this line of
25 questioning is relevant to the case.
345
1 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell?
2 MS. CAMPBELL: We believe it is very
3 relevant to the case. Some of the underlying
4 issues to the whole case are motivation of why
5 this is coming about and the credibility of Mr.
6 Schiavo. I think her testimony, as well as the
7 testimony from other witnesses, will corroborate
8 the fact that their relationship was not as solid
9 as one may believe.
10 Since its concerning specifically to
11 the Browning case, Mr. Felos's argument throughout
12 this whole trial I think is that there are
13 different types of hearsay problems and
14 potentially a Dead Man's Statute problem.
15 Especially in this case, and in light of the
16 Browning decision, we believe that its within the
17 purview of the Court to hear the different
18 information, since this is a matter of the judge's
19 and not a jury's decision, to determine the
20 information based on the credibility of the
21 witnesses.
22 There is a case, Old Republic Surety
23 Bank. I don't see the cite here. I have it. It
24 basically stands for the point that this different
25 kind of information can come in on hearsay,
346
1 specifically pertaining to the Dead Man Statute.
2 We believe some of these conversations on these
3 issues would be relevant as to the intent of Terri
4 and specifically as to her state of mind going
5 into some of this and making the decision made.
6 MR. FELOS: I agree with counsel that
7 there are hearsay implications to the questions as
8 well. But Your Honor, I still didn't see how the
9 issue of the status of the marriage eleven years
10 ago would shed light on what Theresa Schiavo's
11 intent was regarding the issue of continued
12 medical treatment or provision of artificial life
13 support.
14 THE COURT: I'm not sure it's relevant,
15 but I'm equally not sure it's not. We have
16 testimony from the petitioner as to things that
17 were said to him by her. Conceivably, this might
18 shed some light on that, so it's a close question
19 and I'm going to rule that the question is
20 permissible and the objection will be overruled.
21 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Thank you. Did she
22 have conversations with you about her relationship
23 with Michael?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you recall any of those
347
1 conversations?
2 A Yes. She was concerned that Michael had
3 problems with jobs. He had one job, then
4 another. She would get upset because he would
5 call her at work and complain about his job, if he
6 was working. She would also get upset with -- he
7 was lazy she said. She just could not get him to
8 do things. That is about it right now.
9 Q Did you and Terri ever have
10 conversations about she wanting to have children?
11 A I really didn't have any conversations
12 with her about children.
13 Q Did you know that she was going to a
14 gynecologist?
15 A I knew she was, because Terri has always
16 had problems with her period, but as far as
17 children, no. I did not know that.
18 Q Tell the Court what happened on
19 February 25, 1990.
20 A Around 5:30 in the morning, I got a
21 phone call from Michael. He had said that Terri
22 had fainted and he didn't know what he was going
23 to do. So he called, I guess he was taking her to
24 the hospital. Would we meet him at Humana
25 Northside. I said, you know, yes. That we would
348
1 be right there.
2 Q Did you go to Northside Hospital?
3 A Yes.
4 Q What happened?
5 A Well, when we got there, they already
6 had taken Terri back to the emergency room. So I
7 had not seen her. I didn't see her. We didn't
8 see her. I guess they worked on her for a while
9 and they just could not bring her around.
10 Q How long was she at Northside Hospital?
11 A I guess about four months.
12 Q Were you there during that time frame?
13 A Yes. My husband was there. I was
14 there. Suzanne was going to college at the time
15 in Central Florida. She quit. She came down. We
16 all were at the emergency room or the waiting room
17 as long as she was in there.
18 Q Were you working at the time?
19 A No. I was not.
20 Q Was your husband working at the time?
21 A He had just gotten a job about a week
22 before that in Tampa.
23 Q So was he able to spend as much time
24 there as you were?
25 A No. He -spent some time there, but not
349
1 as much as me or Suzanne.
2 Q Where did Terri go after Northside?
3 A After Northside, she went to College
4 Harbor.
5 Q Was she there for very long?
6 A No. Just for a few months. After that,
7 she went to Bayfront for some rehab.
8 Q When she was at College Harbor, would
9 you visit her there?
10 A Yes. Every day.
11 Q Was Michael visiting her there?
12 A Yes.
13 Q How would you describe your and
14 Michael's relationship during this time frame?
15 A Her and Michael's?
16 Q Your and Michaels.
17 A My and Michael's relationship was very
18 good. We did everything together. Wherever he
19 went, I went. I went everywhere with him. Did
20 everything together.
21 Q You said she went from College Harbor to
22 Bayfront Hospital?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What was she having at Bayfront?
25 A There was a doctor there, Dr. Baras,
350
1 that did some rehab on her to see if it would help
2 her.
3 Q Did you assist with any of that?
4 A Yes. Later on, they taught us what to
5 do.
6 Q Describe what you would do.
7 A Go in the rehab center with her. Show
8 us how to work her arms and legs. Show us how to
9 transfer her from the bed to the wheelchair.
10 Wheelchair to the bed. Different things we have
11 to know how to do.
12 Q Where did she go from Bayfront Rehab?
13 A I think we took her home.
14 Q Where were you living at the time?
15 A We were living at a house on West Vina
16 on
17 Q Who was living in the house?
18 A I was, my husband, and Michael.
19 Q How long was she there?
20 A Maybe three months. Two months.
21 Q Who was taking care of her?
22 A Michael and I.
23 Q Did you have any outside help coming in?
24 A I'm not sure if it was there. I think
25 in the beginning we had, once or twice, a nurse.
351
1 For most of the time, Michael and I used to take
2 care of her.
3 Q Did she continue to stay in your house?
4 A No.
5 Q Why not?
6 A She was getting -- she had a lot of
7 problems. They would take her from the hospital
8 to the house. It was hard for Michael and I to
9 take care of her. We decided to move her back to,
10 I think it was
11 Q How were all her bills paid during this
12 time frame?
13 A When we moved to
14 some people that we knew. We started talking.
15 Particularly this one lady was really, really good
16 to us. She started everything rolling. She got
17 these fund raisers. She went to the man that
18 owned the Hurricane Restaurant, Bruno, and got him
19 involved and his brother.
20 We had fund raisers. We had sold
21 different things on the beach. We sold pretzels.
22 We had a thing set up at one of the shopping
23 centers. Donations came in. Prudential had a big
24 thing. They had, all over the country they got
25 their offices to donate. Just a lot of people
352
1 pitched in.
2 We had a Valentine's dance. We had a
3 lot of people that were just really good at that
4 time that helped us.
5 Q How were people learning about Terri's
6 cause?
7 A Just by us and everything like in
8 businesses and stuff. They had it in the paper.
9 Just people that would, you know, tell different
10 people. It would just travel.
11 Q Did you ever handle any of the
12 accounting part for this money?
13 A No. I did not.
14 Q What happened to the money?
15 A Well, we gave it to Michael. He put it
16 in a trust -- I don't know if it was a trust, but
17 the bank. First Union Bank.
18 Q Did you ever see an accounting of the
19 money?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you know how much was raised?
22 A I think around 50,000.
23 Q Where did she go from College Harbor?
24 A To California.
25 Q Explain what happened in California.
353
1 Did you go on that trip?
2 A No. I did not go. Just Michael and
3 Terri. I think a nurse.
4 Q What was the purpose of going to
5 California?
6 A Michael learned about this doctor, a
7 Dr. Hoshibushi, that was doing some experimental
8 work in the brain and he had -- he talked to him.
9 He said yes, he would take Terri. He went out to
10 the University of California at San Francisco, I
11 think it was. That is where they did that.
12 Q How long was she in California?
13 A Well, maybe two months. Two-and-a-half.
14 Q Did you talk to Michael during that time
15 frame?
16 A Yes. I did. He used to keep us
17 informed on what was going on out there.
18 Q How often would you talk to him?
19 A Maybe every other night.
20 Q When they came back from
21 there ever any follow up with those physicians?
22 A A year later.
23 Q What happened?
24 A One year later, when Terri was in
25 Mediplex in
354
1 Dr. Yinghling to
2 They usually like to bring the patient back, but
3 because of Terri's condition they sent Dr.
4 Yinghling out and he did the examination there at
5 Mediplex.
6 Q Were you there with Dr. Yinghling?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Was there any improvement from the
9 electrodes?
10 A Dr. Yinghling said that he --
11 MR. FELOS: I Object. Hearsay. She is
12 testifying to what Dr. Yinghling said. He is not
13 available to cross-examine.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) What was your
16 impression of Terri's condition? Did you see any
17 improvement?
18 A I thought I did.
19 Q Could you describe what type of
20 improvement?
21 A Terri was, from what she was before she
22 went to
23 chair. She was, her arms were, you know, better.
24 Her hands were better. Just her overall
25 appearance from when she came back. How she was
355
1 acting. I just, I saw an improvement when she
2 went to California.
3 Q Were there any other improvements you
4 believed could be made?
5 A We thought maybe, you know, if she had
6 some other tests done, then we could see if there
7 was any improvement from the time she went to
8 California to now to when she came back.
9 Q Were you aware of any other facilities
10 that could have assisted Terri?
11 A Yes. There was a hospital in
12
13 have been taken to.
14 Q Was Terri ever taken there?
15 A No. Not to my knowledge.
16 Q How long do you believe she was at
17 Mediplex?
18 A Six or eight months.
19 Q What was the purpose of the Mediplex?
20 A Well, it was a brain stem place where
21 they thought -- hospital and rehab hospital where
22 they worked with people that had brain damage.
23 Strokes. And they thought it would be good for
24 Terri to go there.
25 Q After she left Mediplex, where did she
356
1 go?
2 A To Sabal Palms.
3 Q How long was she in Sabal Palms?
4 A Maybe a year-and-a-half.
5 Q How was your financial situation during
6 this time frame? The initial days of Sabal Palms?
7 A My financial situation was not good.
8 Q Why?
9 A I was not working. Bob just started a
10 brand new job, and we were still trying to
11 recover.
12 Q Was Michael working then?
13 A No.
14 Q Were you all still living together?
15 A No.
16 Q Why not?
17 A Well, when we moved, we went to another
18 house in
19 lived there I guess with Michael, Bob and I, for
20 maybe about I guess a year. A little over a
21 year. Then one day Michael came and said he
22 thought it was time that he moved out, and that we
23 supported him. We said okay. You know, that if
24 he wanted to move out, that was fine.
25 Q Was this an amicable separation?
357
1 A Yes. It was.
2 Q Why did Michael leave? Move out?
3 A He said he wanted to get on with his
4 life.
5 Q Were there any discussions then about
6 the financial circumstances then that you or
7 Michael were having?
8 A Michael would always talk to me about
9 that. You know, first of all, we were all in this
10 together. We all had financial problems.
11 Michael, Bob. We all did. It was a very
12 stressful time. It was a very financially
13 difficult time. He used to say, "Don't worry,
14 mom. If I ever get any money from the lawsuit,
i5 I'll help you and dad."
16 Q Do you know what he meant by that?
17 A Well, we -- not we. I'm sorry. Michael
18 sued doctor, two doctors for Terri, a malpractice
19 case, and Terri got an award and so did Michael.
20 Q Were you a part of the malpractice
21 lawsuit?
22 A No. I was not.
23 Q Were any promises ever made?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What is your understanding of the
358
1 promises?
2 A Well, Michael owes us some money from
3 the condominium. The rent. Moving expenses.
4 Different things. He always told us he would pay
5 us back. He always said that if anything ever
6 came of his award, that we could -- he would help
7 us out.
8 Q Were there ever discussions about
9 Terri's future medical slash housing arrangements?
10 A Yes. He said -- well, we thought about
11 buying a house, bringing Terri home, so Bob and I
12 could be with her. Take care of her for ever how
13 long she had to live.
14 Q So when did you and Michael, you and Bob
15 and Michael separate?
16 A I think it was around 1 93.
17 Q Was it after the malpractice trial or
18 before?
19 A No. No. It was after. Yeah, it was
20 after.
21 Q Did you attend the trial for Terri's
22 malpractice case?
23 A Yes. I did.
24 Q When was that?
25 A It was I think November of '92.
359
1 Q Was it before a jury?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did the jury find in Terri's favor?
4 A Partially.
5 Q What do you mean?
6 A She was -- I'm not even sure. She was
7 30 percent or 60 percent to blame and the doctor
8 was the rest to blame.
9 Q Do you remember the award?
10 A All I remember is 1.2. That is all I
11 remember.
12 Q Do you know when this money was
13 distributed?
14 A Sometime in January of '93, I think.
15 Q Do you recall any kind of disagreement
16 with Michael over the money?
17 A It was over the money. It was also over
18 after Terri got the money, we wanted to take her
19 to the hospital and it was over his award and
20 because he would not do anything for her after she
21 got the award.
22 Q Which hospital are you referring to?
23 A Shands in Gainesville.
24 Q Was there one particular discussion or
25 continual discussions?
360
1 A It was one particular discussion. We
2 were in Sabal Palms. We had gone up to see Terri
3 on the 14th of February. We had gone in. Michael
4 was sitting there studying. We were talking about
5 the money and about his money. That with his
6 money and the money Terri got, now we could take
7 her to Shands or get some testing done. Do all
8 this stuff. He said he was not going to do it.
9 Q Was there any reason?
10 A He didn't feel anything else could be
11 done for her. So we kept talking. He got mad.
12 He took his book and threw it against the wall.
13 He took the table. It went against the wall.
14 Then we came out. We started walking
15 out of the room and my husband and him were both
16 yelling. I just stood in the middle. I said
17 that's enough. He says, you'll never see your
18 daughter again. I said okay. I said, we're
19 getting out of here. Let's go.
20 I really didn't want anything to
21 happen. So I took my husband by the arm and I
22 pulled him out. We went out the door. We went
23 down the hallway and he says, I'm on the phone to
24 my lawyer.
25 Q Who said that?
361
1 A Michael.
2 Q What did you gather from that?
3 A I gathered that Terri was not going to
4 have any kind of medical attention. That we were
5 not going to get any of whatever he got for his
6 award.
7 Q Were you ever paid back any of the money
8 that was owed?
9 A No.
10 Q Did Michael then prevent you from seeing
11 Terri after that?
12 A No. We could go and see her. We could
13 go see her, but we could not find out anything
14 about her.
15 Q How was that information withheld from
16 you?
17 A There was a paper, I guess, on top of
18 the book from the nursing home. It said we were
19 not to be told anything about Terri.
20 Q This was at which nursing home?
21 A Sabal Palms.
22 Q Were you ever aware of Michael
23 attempting to withhold treatment for an infection
24 of Terri's?
25 A Yes.
362
1 Q How do you learn about that?
2 A A nurse told me from Sabal Palms when we
3 went to visit her one day.
4 Q Was it your understanding the nurse was
5 allowed to discuss Terri's medical condition?
6 A No. But I said to her -- we were in the
7 waiting room. We had Terri out in the room. I
8 said, "She looks terrible. Her face is white."
9 She said she just came back from the hospital. I
10 said, "The hospital?" And she said yeah. She had
11 her gallbladder out.
12 I said I didn't know that. She said
13 yeah. She said also, she says to me also, she
14 almost did not get any antibiotics. I said, For
15 what?" She said she had a urinary tract infection
16 or some kind of infection. I said, "Is she
17 getting them now?" She says yes. Now she is.
18 She said the nursing home is giving them to her.
19 I said to Bob, "We have to do something."
20 Q What did you do?
21 A We went to see a lawyer.
22 Q What was the purpose of the visit?
23 A To try to get guardianship of our
24 daughter.
25 Q Did you want to become the guardian of
363
1 Terri?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you file a petition to have Michael
4 removed as guardian?
5 A Yes. I did.
6 Q What came of the petition?
7 A As far as?
8 Q As far as --
9 A As far as we are concerned, nothing.
10 The court appointed a guardian ad litem and the
11 guardian ad litem ruled in favor of Michael. I --
12 for us to pursue it, it would have been a
13 financial problem for us. So at that time, we
14 just, we just did not do anything.
15 Q Were there depositions taken?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Who was the attorney representing you at
18 the time?
19 A Jim Sheehan.
20 Q Were the depositions friendly?
21 A No.
22 Q How would you describe the deposition
23 process?
24 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. What
25 is the relevance of how the witness found a
364
1 deposition process?
2 THE COURT: What is the relevance?
3 MS. CAMPBELL: It goes to, also in
4 anticipation of what Mr. Felos is going to, I
5 imagine, on cross-examine, some information he
6 already admitted to the petition -- or the
7 dismissal with prejudice. I'm getting as to she
8 will testify as to what led up to the dismissal
9 process.
10 THE COURT: I heard the lawyer talk
11 about that last week. What is in that dismissal
12 with prejudice that is at issue perhaps today?
13 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, if I may, the
14 basis of Mr. and Mrs. Schindler's petition to
15 remove Michael as a guardian in 1 93, and amended
16 in '94, was that he was not caring for Terri.
17 That he had a financial conflict of interest
18 because he was the heir at law. That he was
19 involved in a relationship with another woman, so
20 he was not fit to be guardian. And that he was
21 abusing Terri in some way by withholding
22 treatment.
23 It is very relevant, the type of
24 dismissal, because in essence the respondents are
25 regurgitating many of those claims in this
365
1 proceeding.
2 THE COURT: I have not researched the
3 dismissal with prejudice. They go to the cause of
4 action. Also, the facts that are alleged. Are
5 you suggesting a dismissal with prejudice and
6 everything alleged in the petition and complaint
7 are false?
8 MR. FELOS: No. What I'm saying is that
9 I believe a collateral estoppel applies to a party
10 when they have dismissed with prejudice issues
11 that they have litigated before that it estops
12 them from raising them in a new proceeding. That
13 is from a legal point of view.
14 As a point of view in credibility,
15 Your Honor, did the Schindler's position, is it
16 that these things are important enough to them to
17 be raised in this proceeding, or as Mr. Schindler
18 stated in his deposition, he would do anything to
19 keep his daughter alive. Then I think it is very
20 relevant to that credibility as to why they
21 dismissed with prejudice in essence these same
22 claims four years ago.
23 THE COURT: But again, I'm not sure what
24 you are attempting to accomplish with the
25 dismissal with prejudice. The issue, as I
366
1 understand it, is what would the ward wish to
2 happen given these circumstances, and collaterally
3 I guess since we have a lot of testimony about it,
4 there is some attack on whether or not she is
5 terminal. What does a dismissal with prejudice
6 have to do with either of those?
7 MR. FELOS: The respondents are saying
8 as to the ward's intent, you can't believe what
9 Michael is telling you because he is involved with
10 another woman. You can't believe what he is
11 telling you about Theresa's intent because he is
12 the heir at law. So their attack on his
13 credibility goes to his credibility as to the
14 statements of Theresa's intent.
15 All we are saying is that Mr. and Mrs.
16 Schindler raised those fact issues and dismissed
17 those with prejudice, which is very relevant.
18 THE COURT: It's relevant as to the
19 ruling of the guardian and not relevant as to
20 anything else, is it? The dismissal?
21 MR. FELOS: I think this collaterally
22 estops, Your Honor. You don't have to have a suit
23 brought on the same cause of action, but if the
24 issues in a prior litigation are similar to the
25 issues in a subsequent litigation, the doctrine
367
1 applies.
2 THE COURT: I understand as to issue.
3 think we are talking now about facts. Facts used
4 to support that claim. This claim.
5 MR. FELOS: I think they are relying on
6 the same facts.
7 THE COURT: But cannot facts be used to
8 support more than one claim? You run a red light.
9 Hit two cars. One sues you for running a red
10 light. The other sues you for running a red
11 light. One sues you for personal injury and comes
12 back in a year to fix the car. Same facts.
13 MR. FELOS: But different parties,
14 Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Same parties. If you get
16 sued twice by the same person, I don't know what
17 the dismissal with prejudice has to do -- to me,
18 we are getting pretty collateral in lots of things
19 for how it's going to assist me in arriving at
20 this decision. But it almost seams premature that
21 you're attacking. You are anticipating. Is that
22 what you are doing?
23 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor. He
24 raised it in the whole issue that we had at the
25 hearing.
368
1 THE COURT: He has not raised it in
2 trial.
3 MS. CAMPBELL: Well, on his list for
4 rebuttal witnesses is Jim Sheehan. So based on
5 the hearing we had last week, that is the only
6 reason I'm getting into this as to give their
7 reasoning as to why they had the dismissal with
8 prejudice.
9 THE COURT: Well, for what limited
10 purpose it will serve, I will let you go down that
11 road. Again, I'm not convinced that the dismissal
12 is part of why we are here. I thought why we are
13 here is to decide today how this lady felt prior
14 to February 25, 1990. What happened in the mid
15 nineties should have little or no bearing on that.
16 But you all are the lawyers and know
17 more about your case than I do because I have not
18 heard your case. I'll let you go down the road,
19 but I don't know if I agree with you.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: I am just anticipating
21 what I believe is coming next.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 Q (By Ms. Campbell) I was asking you,
24 Mrs. Schindler, about the depositions. You had
25 depositions in that case?
369
1 A Yes.
2 Q Describe the depositions.
3 A My deposition?
4 Q Just your deposition in general.
5 A It was a little hostile. It was
6 difficult. It was --
7 Q Lots of arguing?
8 A Arguing from my lawyer with Michael's
9 lawyer. Different objections. Just a lot of back
10 and forth.
11 Q A lot of time being spent on this?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Was it expensive?
14 A Very expensive. Yes.
15 Q Was there any arrangements made in the
16 dismissal with prejudice as to the financial part
17 of it?
18 A The only thing, if we wanted to go on,
19 we had to pay all the expenses for whatever they
20 wanted to do, if we wanted to go further. So it
21 was decided that we were not going to go any
22 further.
23 Q At this time frame, '93/194, were you
24 receiving information about Terri's medical
25 condition during that time?
370
1 A No.
2 Q When did you start receiving medical
3 information about Terri?
4 A I really have not received very much
5 medical information to this day. Maybe she's
6 okay. Maybe she is doing well. That is about it.
7 Q Did you hire an attorney to try to get
8 medical information?
9 A Yes. I did. I think it was '95/196.
10 Somewhere in '96. Yes. We hired Mr. Gross to
11 obtain medical information, and I thought we got
12 it. I thought it was settled and everything was
13 okay. I still, when I call, they are very
14 hesitant about giving me any kind of information.
15 Q Do you receive annual reports from the
16 guardianship as to her physical condition?
17 A No.
18 Q Do you receive any annual reports as to
19 the property?
20 A I received a couple. I think I had
21 three.
22 Q Do you receive reports as to Terri's
23 finances?
24 A No.
25 1 Q That is what I mean when I say property.
371
1 A No. I thought you meant her -- no. I
2 don't get that.
3 Q What kind of reports, what kind of
4 information is contained in the reports you get?
5 A It is just a guardian's report I
6 received. I think about three of them I have
7 gotten.
8 Q Did Terri ever discuss her thoughts
9 with you concerning any advanced directives such
10 as a living will?
11 A No.
12 Q Did Terri tell you what she would want
13 done if she were on a ventilator?
14 A No.
15 Q If she were on a feeding tube?
16 A No.
17 Q During the time Terri's grandmother,
18 Mrs. Schindler, was on a ventilator, were there
19 any discussions with you, between you and Terri,
20 as to Terri's thoughts of her being on a
21 ventilator at that time?
22 A No. But she was just very, very
23 supportive of us, her dad and us, with my
24 mother-in-law. Whatever we had to do.
25 Q During the time in early 1990, after
372
1 Terri's incident, did anyone ever come to you and
2 say they know Terri would not want to live like
3 that?
4 A No.
5 Q Did Michael ever tell you that?
6 A No.
7 Q Did Scott Schiavo ever tell you that?
8 A No.
9 Q Joan Schiavo?
10 A No.
11 Q During the late 1970s, when the Karen
12 Ann Quinlan case was in the news, did you and
13 Terri ever discuss that case?
14 A Yes. We did. We used to watch it on
15 television. The scenes on television.
16 Q Like what kind of proceedings?
17 A Well, all the films of her. They used
18 to have it on television. What she was going
19 through.
20 Q Do you recall what she was going
21 through?
22 A I think she was on a ventilator and they
23 were going to take her off.
24 Q Do you recall, did Terri make any
25 comments about that?
373
1 A She said just leave her alone. Leave
2 her. If they take her off, she might die. Just
3 leave her alone and she will die whenever.
4 Q Do you know anyone else that she ever
5 had any conversations with concerning the Karen
6 Ann Quinlan case?
7 A Yes. A girlfriend of hers from
8 Philadelphia.
9 Q Who was that?
10 A Her name is Diane Meyer.
11 Q How do you know about that conversation?
12 A Because Diane told me.
13 Q When did she tell you?
14 A About two years ago.
15 Q During the days at Majestic Towers, did
16 Terri ever make any comments to you concerning a
17 feeding tube, ventilator, or anything like that
18 pertaining to the people that she saw?
19 A No.
20 Q Was Terri comfortable at Majestic
21 Towers?
22 A Yes.
23 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, that calls for a
24 conclusion on the part of the witness.
25 THE COURT: It does. Sustained.
374
1 Q (By Ms. Campbell) When Terri would go
2 to Majestic Towers, was she uncomfortable there
3 do you know?
4 A No.
5 MR. FELOS: Same objection.
6 THE COURT: Just ask it a different way,
7 Ms. Campbell.
8 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did Terri ever
9 hesitate, to your knowledge, about not wanting to
10 go with you to Majestic Towers?
11 A No.
12 Q Ever make a comment about not wanting to
13 go there?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you aware of the residents there on
16 feeding tubes or ventilators?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you and Terri ever discuss any of
19 those particular patients specifically?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you know of anyone else that she may
22 have had conversations with regarding her
23 intentions?
24 A No.
25 Q Do you remember Mr. Felos taking your
375
1 deposition August 12, 1999?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Describe your feelings on that day.
4 A Upset. Nervous. Concerned. Just
5 wanting it over.
6 Q Do you recall your thoughts ahead of
7 that deposition? Was there any message or
8 anything you were trying to tell Mr. Felos?
9 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, again, what is
10 the relevance about how the witness felt about my
11 taking her deposition?
12 THE COURT: What is the relevance?
13 MS. CAMPBELL: The relevance goes to
14 some of the answers we are about to get to that
15 she testified to. Some of the answers she has
16 given to the questions.
17 THE COURT: It's a little late to give
18 an alternate answer from August.
19 MS. CAMPBELL: I don't know that they
20 are alternate answers. I think it explains some
21 of the answers she has given.
22 THE COURT: Well, it's like testimony.
23 I'll allow. Did she read and sign?
24 MS. CAMPBELL: She's not signed it.
25 MR. FELOS: But she did read it.
376
1 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler, did
2 you read your deposition?
3 A Yes.
4 THE COURT: Well --
5 MS. CAMPBELL: I don't believe she's
6 changing her testimony.
7 THE COURT: Okay. If she's going to
8 change it, I guess we'll get the court reporter in
9 here.
10 MS. CAMPBELL: I say I don't believe
11 she's changing it.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Do you remember Mr.
14 Felos asking you various questions about your
15 thoughts pertaining to the end of death situation?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Pertaining to gangerine [sic]? Pertaining to
18 life without limbs?
19 A Yes.
20 Q When you answered those questions, were
21 you answering them truthfully?
22 A I thought I was. I was so upset and
23 nervous. I didn't want to say in that --
24 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, if the witness
25 intends to recant her testimony, her opinions,
377
1 that is one thing. Counsel said the witness is
2 not altering. That is not what it sounds like to
3 me.
4 MS. CAMPBELL: She is stating her state
5 of mind at the time she was giving her testimony.
6 THE COURT: She said I thought I was
7 telling the truth then, which tells me it's not
8 the truth. I don't know anything closer to
9 recantation than saying I didn't tell you the
10 truth I swore in August. I'll tell you the truth
11 now. I will not let her go there.
12 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay.
13 THE COURT: That is unfair surprise.
14 That is certainly -- had plenty of opportunity to
15 get to that. She has had the deposition. She
16 read it. Admitted reading it. This is the second
17 day of trial. That's not appropriate.
18 MS. CAMPBELL: That is not appropriate.
19 Thank you.
20 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler, how
21 often do you see Terri now?
22 A On the weekends.
23 Q How long have you been seeing her that
24 often?
25 A Most of the time.
378
1 Q Describe a typical visit with Terri.
2 A Go in. We talk. We watch television.
3 Q How long are you usually there?
4 A Um, about an hour, hour-and-a-half
5 sometimes.
6 Q Does anyone go with you?
7 A My husband. My daughter.
8 Q When you say you talk, what do you mean
9 by that?
10 A I talk to her. I tell her what is going
11 on. I tell her things that have happened during
12 the week. I tell her about my granddaughter. I
13 tell her what happens at the store. I just tell
14 I her things that happen during the day. The whole
15 week of what I do. What her dad is doing.
16 Q Does she respond to you?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Does she make any verbal response to
19 you?
20 A Sometimes she laughs a lot. She will
21 I cry. She just looks at me. She's just -- I
22 believe she understands. I believe that she knows
23 that I'm there.
24 Q When you say she makes these responses,
25 how often does she_ make these kind of responses in
379
1 a given month out of the four visits?
2 A All four visits.
3 Q Does she turn her head and look at you
4 when you enter the room?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Do you believe that she sees you or do
7 you believe more of her hearing you?
8 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object to this
9 line of questioning in the form of "do you
10 believe". I think it is appropriate to ask Mrs.
11 Schindler what she observed, but to just ask her
12 what she believes, I think, is improper
13 foundation.
14 THE COURT: Questions about perception,
15 I'm not sure how that translates into these
16 answers. I think this testimony is probably
17 better what she sees. She certainly can't tell
18 what it appears. Visualizes. Leave that for
19 somebody that --
20 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe my question was
21 what does she believe her perception was?
22 THE COURT: I understand. I'm not
23 sure. As I say, we talked about perception. The
24 perception was they see things. They perceive it
25 occurring to them. I think you might be better
380
1 suited on this to ask her what she sees. Maybe
2 ask how she perceived all that.
3 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Please describe what
4 you observe when you enter Terri's room.
5 A When I enter her room, she is usually
6 laying there looking around. Maybe listening to
7 the radio. I will go over to her and I will say,
8 "It's mommy". I hug her and kiss her. She
9 laughs. Sometimes she cries. I comfort her. If
10 she laughs, I just let her laugh. If she cries, I
11 try to, you know, comfort her until she stops.
12 Then we talk. I really and truly believe that she
13 knows who I am.
14 Q When you enter, do you always approach
15 her on the same side of the bed?
16 A No.
17 Q is she always in her room when you go to
18 see her?
19 A No.
20 Q Where is she usually?
21 A Sometimes she's in her wheelchair out by
22 the nurse's station. Sometimes she's in her bed.
23 Q Does it depend on the time of day when
24 you go to visit?
25 A Yes.
381
1 Q Do you know what her schedule is as far
2 as being in the room versus by the nurse's
3 station?
4 A Yes. Usually.
5 Q What would that schedule be?
6 A She's usually in her chair till about
7 2:00. Then she goes back to bed. Sometimes they
8 get her up after 2:00, but sometimes they will
9 leave her in bed.
10 Q If you move from one side of the bed to
11 the other, or from one side of the wheelchair to
12 the other, does she follow you with her eyes or
13 does her head turn?
14 A Sometimes her eyes. Like if I go one
15 side to the other, she will follow me. Her head,
16 not all the time.
17 Q Did you bring anything with you today to
18 demonstrate a typical visit with Terri?
19 A Yes. I brought a short video.
20 Q When was this video made?
21 A Saturday.
22 Q This past Saturday?
23 A Yes.
24 Q About how long is it?
25 A Maybe four minutes. Five minutes.
382
1 Q Who made this video?
2 A A friend of the family.
3 Q Is he a professional person at making
4 videos?
5 A No.
6 Q Was it just a personal video camera that
7 was used?
8 A Yes.
9 Q To your knowledge, has this videotape
10 been altered in any way?
11 A No.
12 Q After the videotape was made, what
13 happened to it?
14 A I brought it home. Then we gave it to
15 you.
16 Q Have you seen this video?
17 A No. I have not seen it yet.
18 MS. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, at this time,
19 I would like to play the video for the Court.
20 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object on a
21 number of grounds. The first ground is surprise.
22 I was told by Ms. Campbell yesterday that she had
23 a video, but that she had one copy and did not
24 have a copy for me. I was given a copy today at
25 the end of the morning recess and watched this for
383
1 the first time at 11 o'clock or after 11 o'clock.
2 So number one, I have not had the
3 opportunity to show the video to our expert
4 witnesses and have our expert witnesses have the
5 benefit of their expertise in order to prepare a
6 cross-examination. That is number one.
7 Number two, this should be brought out
8 on voir dire as to the authenticity of the tape.
9 Mrs. Schindler just testified that her typical
10 visit is about 30 minutes, yet there is a three
11 minute video, which leads me to suspect that there
12 may have been other portions of the visit which
13 might not have been favorable to the respondent's
14 position that is not included.
15 Also what concerns me is there seems to
16 be a gap or break in the video from when it starts
17 to when it finishes. So there are, I think there
18 are problems with authenticity. There are
19 problems with surprise. The other thing,
20 Your Honor, is something we talked about at the
21 status hearing. How is the Court to interpret
22 what that video means?
23 The Court, not being a neurologist or
24 expert in that area, what benefit or relevance
25 would it be for the Court to try to interpret what
384
1 the video means, which was the same question the
2 Court raised as to the Court visiting Theresa.
3 So on all those grounds, Your Honor, we
4 object to the playing of the video and the
5 introduction.
6 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell?
7 MS. CAMPBELL: As to the surprise issue ,
8 last Wednesday we had our hearing. Wednesday,
9 right prior to 5 o'clock, I received a fax from
10 Mr. Felos concerning who his witnesses were and
11 his exhibit list confirming in his fax to me that
12 the only evidence I would be bringing was Mr.
13 Pearse's report. I got that fax early the next
14 morning, Thursday morning.
15 I sent him a reply fax Thursday morning
16 that said, I believe it said something about I
17 already told him all the witnesses, but as to the
18 evidence, I believe we may have a video and some
19 photographs. Otherwise, he was correct in just it
20 was Mr. Pearse's report.
21 I told Mr. Felos on Monday that we would
22 have a video. This was yesterday. But I did not
23 have an extra copy and I did not want to give him
24 my only copy. It is a very short video. I was
25 hoping there would be time for Mr. Felos prior.
385
1 He has observed it prior.
2 I am not aware of any gap in the video.
3 It is an amateur video that has been done. I
4 don't know. It is maybe that or the quality of
5 the copy. The copy was made from one VCR to
6 another. It was not, the copy was not made
7 professionally. Maybe the original would be
8 different for him, but I don't believe so.
9 As to how the Court is interpreting
10 this, Dr. Barnhart (sic) yesterday testified that
11 potentially there could be other cognizance, but
12 he was not aware of it. It is true, he has not
13 seen this video. None of the experts have. I was
14 not aware of who he was going to call to trial
15 until last Wednesday evening or last Thursday
16 morning.
17 THE COURT: Two things concern me.
18 Number one, there is nobody in this courtroom whom
19 I am aware can authenticate the video. The
20 witness has not seen it. How can she say this is
21 a true copy of what it purports to be?
22 The other thing that concerns me is that
23 over a ten-year period of time, we get three
24 minutes, and based on the testimony that I heard
25 yesterday and today that this lady can appear to
386
1 be responsive based upon brain stem activity, how
2 in the world am I supposed to tell in a three to
3 five minute snippet what has gone on before?
4 Is she feeling anything? Is there
5 any -- I don't know. I'm talking about feeling
6 anything from sensation wise. Stimuli given to
7 her. I just don't know. So I don't know how it
8 helps me. I guess the basic evidentiary thing is
9 that I am a little reluctant to receive
10 unauthenticated evidence. That is what you are
11 asking me to do.
12 MS. CAMPBELL: My thought was that after
13 Mrs. Schindler saw this video, she can testify as
14 to was she there. Is this what it looked like.
15 The reason for the brevity part is not
16 to demonstrate the full length of a visit. It was
17 really more of the specific reaction that Mrs.
18 Schindler has been testifying to as to the
19 laughter and crying.
20 MR. FELOS: That is the exact point,
21 Your Honor, as to this video. If Mrs. Schindler
22 said "Terri, I'm here," ten times and one time
23 Terri turned her head and they took a picture of
24 the one time Terri turns her head, that does not
25 give, is not helpful to the Court and does not
387
1 accurately portray or is not relevant to the issue
2 of whether Terri Schiavo is responsive in any way.
3 THE COURT: Let's get down to something
4 a little more basic. Is it not agreed that she is
5 in a persistent vegetative state?
6 MS. CAMPBELL: Mr. and Mrs. Schindler
7 agree, yes, the medical records show she's in a
8 vegetative state. They do believe that she has
9 some cognitive awareness. Dr. Barnhart (sic)
10 testified yesterday to the ribbon of brain matter
11 when he was reviewing the CAT scan.
12 Mr. and Mrs. Schindler don't know. We
13 have not had physicians come in, neurologists come
14 in of their own, to examine Theresa to determine
15 exactly what it is, if any.
16 MR. FELOS: On that point, we are years
17 into this litigation. There is a procedural rule,
18 Ms. Campbell, in this case. The respondents have
19 had two years to file a motion or request the
20 Court to appoint, to allow them to have an
21 independent examination of the ward, but they did
22 not. By definition, a persistent vegetative state
23 is absence of cognitive activity.
24 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe Dr. Barnhart
25 (sic) testified yesterday that he did not believe
388
1 she did, but it is potentially possible she could
2 have some. Whether it is reflex, we don't know.
3 THE COURT: That is my point. Is it
4 Barnhart or Barnhill?
5 MS. FELOS: It is Barnhill.
6 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm sorry.
7 MR. FELOS: I believe, in answer to your
8 question that there is an admission, this is the
9 deposition of Mary Schindler taken on August 12th
10 on Page 35, Line 22.
11 Question. In your opinion, is Terri in
12 a vegetative condition now?
13 Answer. Yes. That is what they call
14 it.
15 THE COURT: And I wrote down in my notes
16 from arguments it's agreed that she's in a
17 permanent vegetative state. By definition, does
18 not that exclude cognitive brain activity?
19 MR. FELOS: It does, Your Honor.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: We don't know the limit
21 of the cognizance. From all the medical
22 information that we have seen, that we have been
23 provided, it does appear she's in a vegetative
24 state. I don't know that the Schindlers are
25 contesting that,-but-they do believe that she has
389
1 some limited ability, especially in the
2 recognition of her mother, and in this reaction
3 she has mainly to her mother and hardly anybody
4 else.
5 I have been informed that the person
6 that created this video is here and we would be
7 able to call him in, if so permitted.
8 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, the two things
9 are mutually exclusive. I can't see how the
10 respondents can admit their daughter is in a
11 persistent vegetative state, which includes
12 unconsciousness, and then say but she has
13 consciousness.
14 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell, I'll not
15 permit this witness to -- I'm not going to permit
16 the tape to come in on this witness. You may be
17 able to take it on another witness, but I would
18 expect some realistic voir dire on the part of Mr.
19 Felos to try and get at those matters. If you're
20 talking about an hour to an hour-and-a-half
21 visit -- but this is only five minutes. In those
22 kind of issues.
23 So you would not be offering the
24 gentleman, I assume a gentleman, I think you said
25 "he", as an expert, but I would treat the
390
1 surroundings in a similar manner and allow Mr.
2 Felos to certainly inquire before that comes into
3 evidence.
4 MS. CAMPBELL: He was not listed on my
5 witness list. Would the Court grant me permission
6 to add him at this point for that limited
7 testimony?
8 THE COURT: Well, I think if you can get
9 by the voir dire issues of why this, why not five
10 minutes before, those kind of issues, I probably
11 will let it in. I'm not sure to what extent. I
12 have not seen it, so I have no idea what I'm going
13 to see and how it fits into the testimony I heard
14 yesterday -- the CAT scan, the matters in
15 evidence -- which basically tell me it cannot be
16 cognitive.
17 I don't know what your evidence is going
18 to show me, so I'm not ruling, but let's move on
19 with Mrs. Schindler and come back.
20 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler,
21 during your normal visit with Terri, how long did
22 you say those general visits last?
23 A About an hour.
24 Q Sometimes more? Sometimes less?
25 A Sometimes more. Sometimes less.
391
1 Q Please describe what -- you have
2 described how Terri responds when you first walk
3 into the room. Does that laughter continue
4 throughout your visit?
5 A She stops. Then if, then if I just talk
6 to her and if I go up to her again, she will maybe
7 start up again. Yeah. She starts up again.
8 Well talk some more. Listen to the radio. And
9 then I always, you know, hug her and kiss her
10 before I leave.
11 Q The reaction that you believe Terri
12 demonstrates, this laughter and/or crying,
13 generally how long does a specific episode of
14 laughter and/or crying last before she calms back
15 down?
16 A Well, the crying can last a little bit
17 longer. Like a couple of minutes, three minutes,
18 you know. But the laughing, it all depends. If
19 her father talks to her, sometimes he will tell
20 her something and she will laugh and stop. If I
21 go up to her and say "Terri, it's mommy," she'll
22 laugh again. Like she's listening to what I'm
23 saying. Like if you tell somebody something and
24 they laugh.
25 Q Do you recall the incident when the
392
1 video was made?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you know when the video was started
4 and when the video was stopped?
5 A Yeah. It started when we got there.
6 She was laying in bed. I went up to her. I was
7 talking to her. She started, you know, like
8 whatever she starts. Sometimes right away when I
9 talk to her. First it was a slow smile on her
10 face. All of a sudden, she started crying, maybe,
11 and she just, I think they told us that she -- I
12 don't know. Just looked like she was just trying
13 to cry. Trying to laugh. Trying to do both.
14 Q Are you referring to the specific visit
15 on Saturday?
16 A Yes. She was really loud. I just kept
17 talking to her. I guess in about four or five
18 minutes -- I kept stroking her head. Rubbing her
19 face. Telling her to calm down, and she did.
20 Q Is it your understanding then that the
21 video was stopped?
22 A Yep.
23 Q What would have happened? What did
24 happen after the video stopped?
25 A We just left. My husband and I stayed
393
1 for a little while. You know, just stayed with
2 Terri. Then we went home.
3 Q Why did you make this video?
4 A Because I wanted people to see, the
5 Court to see what I see. I think that she's -- I
6 think she understands. I think she knows I'm
7 there. She's just -- I just want her to live.
8 Q Have you seen Terri react similarly with
9 other visitors?
10 A Sometimes with her sister. Sometimes
11 with her dad. But her dad always teases her.
12 Sometimes with Suzanne.
13 Q Do you know of any other people from the
14 nursing home that they have come by and talked to
15 you about Terri's laughter?
16 A There was a lady that --
17 MR. FELOS: I object. This looks like
18 we're heading toward hearsay testimony.
19 THE COURT: Until it gets there, it's
20 okay. Overruled as long as she just answers the
21 question.
22 A There was a lady at the nursing home
23 that used to take care of one of the residents
24 there. She used to stop by to see Terri all the
25 time.
394
1 Q (By Ms. Campbell) When you were there?
2 A When I was there? When I was not there.
3 But when I would see her she would say to me --
4 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object.
5 THE COURT: Sustained.
6 Q (By Ms. Campbell) When you would be
7 there -- what was this lady's name?
8 A Her name was Rogene Baker.
9 Q Were there times when you would see Mrs.
10 Baker there at the same time you were there?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Would you see Terri exhibit this same
13 behavior?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you know whether or not Rogene Baker
16 is still coming to the nursing home?
17 A No. I don't.
18 Q Do you see her there anymore currently?
19 A I have not seen her there for a while.
20 Q This time of reaction of the laughter
21 and crying, has she reacted in this similar way
22 throughout the last ten years?
23 A No.
24 Q When did this start?
25 A About a year ago.
395
1 Q Do you know why?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you believe that Terri is in any
4 pain?
5 A No. Not now. I don't think she is in
6 any pain. Maybe when she gets her period, you
7 know, or I think she is in pain then. But I don't
8 think she is in pain now.
9 Q What observations do you have that would
10 lead you to believe that she is in pain?
11 A Sometimes her moaning. She gets her
12 period really, really bad and they have to give
13 her pain pills and stuff sometimes. That way she
14 is just like any other woman. She still has that
15 problem. Other than that, you know.
16 Q Do you believe that Terri is suffering?
17 A No.
18 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no further
19 questions at this point.
20 THE COURT: Thank you. It's been an
21 hour-and-a-half. My guess is that your cross will
22 take a similar length of time?
23 MR. FELOS: At least an hour,
24 Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: In an abundance of caution,
396
1 let's take a five minute break. Mrs. Schindler,
2 ma'am, you are still on the stand. Please talk to
3 no one, except maybe court personnel.
4 (THEREUPON, A RECESS WAS HAD FROM 2:30 - 2:40
5 PM )
6 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit court
7 is back in session.
8 THE COURT: Mrs. Schindler, take your
9 seat in the witness stand.
10 MR. FELOS: Approach the bench?
11 THE COURT: Approach.
12 (THEREUPON, THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGSWERE
13 HAD AT THE BENCH.)
14 MR. FELOS: I have received information
15 during the break that was relayed to me that there
16 is a young lady in the courtroom who has been
17 taking notes, and then on the last recess, went
18 outside the courtroom and started telling one of
19 our witnesses, who is under the rule of witnesses,
20 what is occurring in the proceedings and what the
21 witness, the current witness, is testifying to.
22 The person who allegedly is doing this
23 was communicating this information to Robert
24 Schindler, Jr., one of respondent's witnesses. I
25 know the Court has invoked the rule and I am
397
1 concerned about the possibility that the rule is
2 not being followed because a spectator in the
3 courtroom is providing testimony of the witness to
4 a witness waiting to be called.
5 THE COURT: Do you know who that person
6 is, Ms. Campbell?
7 MS. CAMPBELL: I see his girlfriend
8 there in the audience. I'm not sure if she is
9 doing that or not.
10 MR. FELOS: That is who it was, it was
11 told to me, was the girlfriend of the witness
12 taking notes and telling him.
13 THE COURT: Do you want me to announce
14 that the rule applies to everybody?
15 MR. FELOS: Certainly caution any
16 spectators.
17 THE COURT: I'll do that.
18 MS. CAMPBELL: I'm sorry.
19 (THEREUPON, THE BENCH CONFERENCE ENDED.)
20 THE COURT: It has been brought to the
21 Court's attention that a spectator or spectators
22 may be taking information from the courtroom and
23 discussing testimony with potential witnesses.
24 The rule has been invoked. That applies to
25 everyone. Witnesses are not to talk to anybody
398
1 about their testimony or any other testimony in
2 this case.
3 So if any spectator chooses to disregard
4 the communique of the Court, that you do not
5 discuss anything out of this courtroom with a
6 witness, sanctions will be imposed. Thank you.
7 Mr. Felos, you may proceed.
8 MR. FELOS: Just one moment, Your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: Yes sir.
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MR. FELOS:
13 Q Mrs. Schindler, I wrote down in my notes
14 while you were talking, "I just want her to live."
15 Is that basically how you feel about this
16 situation? You just don't want your daughter to
17 die?
18 A Yes.
19 Q You have been in court and I have read
20 portions of your deposition. Do you recall the
21 portion when I asked you, let's assume
22 hypothetically Terri had said I don't want to be
23 kept artificially alive, and I asked you does that
24 change your position in this case. And you
25 answered no.
399
1 Is that why? Because you just don't
2 want your daughter to die?
3 A I don't think Terri would have said
4 that.
5 Q Excuse me?
6 A I don't think Terri would have said
7 that.
8 Q That is not my question, what you think
9 Terri would say. I asked you hypothetically Terri
10 said that. I don't want to be kept alive
11 artificially. I asked you would that change your
12 position in this case. You said no.
13 Is that why you would disregard your
14 daughter's intent because you just don't want her
15 to die?
16 A I don't want her to die.
17 Q Is it your testimony here today that the
18 responsiveness that you believe Terri has to you
19 has only been occurring for one year?
20 A As much as she's been doing, yes.
21 Q You mentioned your 1993 deposition. You
22 described a little bit about that process. Wasn't
23 it your position -- didn't you have the same
24 position in 1993?
25 A Yes.
400
1 Q That Terri had some sort of awareness of
2 your presence and made these responsive -- or made
3 these responsive actions?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So that just has not happened in the
6 last year, but according to your testimony in '93 ,
7 you believed it was happening back then?
8 A Yes.
9 Q You made reference to Rogene Baker, a
10 nursing home aide, who you believe saw the same
11 thing you see about Terri?
12 A Yes.
L3 Q Do you know why your attorney removed
14 Rogene Baker from her witness list?
15 A No.
16 Q Is it your testimony that your daughter
17 responds to your voice?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And I believe you were describing what
20 is on the tape?
21 A Yes.
22 Q You said that Terri was crying in the
23 tape?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Do you believe that she started crying
401
1 in response to your voice?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You are sure of that?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. When you go to the nursing home,
6 do you bring anything with you?
7 A Not all the time.
8 Q What things might you bring with you
9 when you visit Terri at the nursing home?
10 A During the holidays, I decorate her
11 room. We bring tapes. Easter, I bring, I bring a
12 plant. I'll bring a poinsettia. Just different
13 things with me. Not all the time.
14 Q Do you bring a radio with you when you
15 go to the nursing home?
16 A Sometimes.
17 Q Is there a radio in Terri's room?
18 A There used to be.
19 Q There is not a radio now; is there?
20 A No.
21 Q I also wrote down, while in your
22 examination, you said sometimes Terri cries in
23 response to you?
24 A Yes.
25 1 Q Then again sometimes she doesn't?
1 A Right. Yes. 402
2 Q I also wrote down that you said "I
3 believe she understands"?
4 A Yes.
5 Q So you believe Terri has some cognizance
6 of what's going on?
7 A I believe she -- I believe she
8 understands that I'm there.
9 Q How would you know if Terri has a
10 response, whether she knows that a person is
11 there, as opposed to you or your husband or
12 someone else?
13 A I truly believe that she knows my voice.
14 Q That is what we would see on this
15 tape? Her response to your voice?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Do you believe she has any understanding
18 of her situation?
19 A I don't know that.
20 Q Would you agree that if she did it
21 would be a torment?
22 A I don't know that.
23 Q There was some testimony about
24 ventilators and feeding tubes at the nursing home
25 your mom was in?
403
1 A Yes.
2 Q Isn't it true that Mike Schiavo visited
3 your mom there on numerous occasions?
4 A He used to go see her.
5 Q And you know he's a licensed respiratory
6 therapist?
7 A I understand that.
8 Q Would you dispute the fact that -- what
9 is the name of that nursing home, by the way?
10 A It used to be Majestic Towers. I don't
11 know what it is now.
12 Q Would you dispute the fact that Majestic
13 Towers at the time was not licensed to care for
14 ventilated patients?
15 A Well, there was a couple there.
16 Q Now you mentioned patients with feeding
17 tubes. You never worked with patients with
18 feeding tubes; did you?
19 A I never worked with any of the
20 patients. I just did activities with them.
21 Q You did not do activities with patients
22 with feeding tubes; did you?
23 A Yes. It was called stimulation
24 activity.
25 Q Your mom -- or let me backtrack. Do
404
1 you think that Terri should have a Do Not
2 Resuscitate order? Do you know what a DNR order
3 is?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do you agree or disagree? What's your
6 position? Should Terri be resuscitated if her
7 heart stops?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now you were involved with your mom's
10 care before she passed away; were you not?
11 A Yes.
12 Q You were also involved in the decision
13 making process for your mother?
14 A Yes.
15 Q When your mom was admitted to the
16 nursing facility, she was able to walk; was she
17 not?
18 A No.
19 Q Was she mentally competent?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When your mom was admitted to the
22 nursing home, why did you agree at that time it
23 was appropriate for your mom not to have a DNR
24 order on her chart?
25 A Not to?
405
1 Q Yeah. Was it appropriate for your mom
2 to have a Do Not Resusciate [sic] order?
3 A I don't know that she did.
4 Q Do you recall that I took your
5 deposition back on August 12, 1999?
6 A Yes.
7 Q I'd like to read you your testimony from
8 Page 13, Line 5.
9 Question. Was there a Do Not
10 Resuscitate order entered on your mother's chart?
11 Answer. Yes.
12 Question. Were you involved in your
13 mother's care in her last years of life?
14 Answer. Involved?
15 Question. Well, did you help her make
16 decisions? Did you participate in the decision
17 making process with her?
18 Answer. Yes. I did.
19 Question. Tell me how it came about
20 that a Do Not Resuscitate wish was made.
21 Answer. When she entered the nursing
22 home, we sat down with the people there. Yeah. I
23 guess we did decide at that time not to do that,
24 you know, or not to have -- to have the Do Not
25 Resuscitate.
406
1 Now if you were involved in your
2 mother's care, why was it appropriate for your mom
3 to have a Do Not Resuscitate order when she was
4 mentally competent, could converse, had a much
5 higher quality of life than Theresa, but its not
6 appropriate for Theresa to have a Do Not
7 Resuscitate order?
8 A Well, maybe my mother made that decision
9 herself. My brother was also involved in my
10 mother's decision making, too.
11 Q Well, you are saying maybe it was your
12 mother's wish?
13 A Maybe. I absolutely don't remember.
14 Q Well, again in your deposition on Page
15 13, Line 20.
After you say I guess we did decide
16 at that time not to do that, you know, or not to
17 have that, to have the Do Not Resuscitate, I asked
18 you the question, what do you recall of that
19 conversation?
20 I don't remember ever talking alone with
21 my mom about that. It was the man at the nursing
22 home, my mom and I, and we just discussed it. The
23 three of us. That was it.
24 Are you saying that you did not
25 1 participate in that decision?
407
1 A Um, I must have, but my mother must have
2 made the final decision.
3 Q Do you think that was appropriate for
4 your mother not to have a Do Not Resuscitate
5 order?
6 A If that is what she wished.
7 Q In your testimony, prior testimony, did
8 you not say anything that you disagreed with
9 that? According to your testimony, you were
10 involved in the decision making process with your
11 mother.
12 A But my mother was -- her mind was okay.
13 She knew about that, too. Maybe she is the one
14 that did not want it, and I went along with her.
15 Q You feel strongly about this subject;
16 don't you? You believe that all medical treatment
17 should be used to keep someone alive?
18 A Yes. I do.
19 Q Including artificial life support?
20 A Yes.
21 Q You feel strongly about that?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Did you speak up and mention that to
24 your mother? Try to talk her out of it?
25 A I don't remember if I talked to my
408
1 mother about that or not.
2 Q But would you say it was your mother's
3 decision to make?
4 A At that time, she was mentally
5 competent. She could make that decision by
6 herself.
7 Q So your mom's intent mattered?
8 A If that is what she wanted.
9 Q So why doesn't Terri's intent matter, if
10 hypothetically, that is what Terri wants?
11 A I don't want -- I don't know that to be
12 true.
13 Q But that is not my question. I asked
14 you hypothetically, if Terri said I don't want to
15 be kept alive by artificial means, would that make
16 a difference to you. You said no.
17 My question to you is why doesn't
18 Terri's intent matter?
19 A I don't know if that is Terri's intent.
20 Q Let me ask it this way. Does what Terri
21 wants matter to you regarding a decision to remove
22 artificial life support?
23 A Um, she's not in that position to make
24 that now.
25 Q That was not my question. My question
409
1 is does Terri's intent matter to you? Or is it,
2 in your mind, you just want your daughter not to
3 die for whatever reason?
4 I would like my daughter to live until
5 it's -- she dies when God is ready for her.
6 You were here during Father Murphy's
7 testimony?
8 A Yes. I was.
9 Q How does anyone know when God is ready
10 for someone?
11 A They don't.
12 Q But to you, so I understand how you
13 feel, that whether or not somebody wants medical
14 treatment, they should have it?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Because God might not be ready for them?
17 A Yes.
18 Q I would like to talk to you about, I
19 think you mentioned the Karen Ann Quinlan case?
20 A Yes.
21 Q How old was Terri, do you recall, when
22 you had these conversations with her?
23 A Seventeen, eighteen, twenty. In her
24 teens.
25 Q I believe you testified that the time
410
1 period that these conversations were occurring was
2 when Karen Ann Quinlan's parents were attempting
3 to remove the respirator?
4 A Yes.
5 Q It was on television? It was
6 newsworthy?
7 A Yes.
8 MR. FELOS: One moment, Your Honor.
9 Your Honor, if I may, what number are we up to in
10 identification?
11 THE COURT: The next exhibit would be
12 Exhibit Number Eight.
13 Q (By Mr. Felos) Ma'am, I'd like to show
14 you Petitioner's Number Eight marked for
15 identification. These are newspaper pages from
16 the St. Petersburg Independent dated September 13,
17 1975; September 18, 1975; April 1, 1976 and May
18 24, 1976, regarding the Karen Ann Quinlan case.
19 The first one, September 13, 1975, has
20 the headline regarding the case, "Father Asks The
21 Judge To Let His Daughter Die." What was Terri's
22 birthday?
23 A 12-3-63.
24 Q December of 1963?
25 A Yes.
411
1 Q Well, when this headline broke, Terri
2 would have been 11 years old. And she also would
3 have been, in the next headline September 18 --
4 September 23, 1975, Your World Today, about the
5 Karen Ann Quinlan case, "To Live Or Die", Terri
6 would have been 11 at that time.
7 Then I would like to bring your
8 attention the front page of the St. Pete Times.
9 Terri would have just turned 12 years old, which
10 has on the front page, "Quinlan Has Right To Die",
11 which is when the Supreme Court of New Jersey
12 ruled in favor of the parents to remove the
13 ventilator.
14 And the last one in May of 1976, again
15 front page of the St. Pete Times, "Quinlan
16 Respirator Turned Off". Now you mentioned you
17 had these conversations with Terri in response to
18 the Karen Ann Quinlan case as the parents were
19 trying to remove the respirator, but Terri was not
20 17 or 18 years old at the time; was she?
21 A No. -
22 Q At that time, Terri was 11 years old?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Is it your testimony that you had
25 conversations with your 11-year-old daughter
412
1 regarding artificial, removal of artificial life
2 support?
3 A But the Karen Ann Quinlan case went on
4 for years.
5 Q Ma'am, your testimony was that you had
6 these conversations with your daughter when it was
7 front page in the newspaper when it was
8 newsworthy, and when the parents were trying to
9 remove the respirator. The respirator was removed
10 in May of 1976, when your daughter was 12.
11 My question is, are you saying that you
12 had conversations with your daughter, the
13 conversations that you alluded to with your
14 daughter, occurred when she was 11 and 12 years
15 old? You have to speak out loud so the court
16 reporter can hear you.
17 A Yes.
18 Q Well now, again, what do you say that
19 Theresa said about the Karen Ann Quinlan case to
20 you?
21 A Just leave her alone.
22 Q Now I took your deposition again last
23 August and on Page 28, Line 1, I asked you, now
24 did you discuss with Terri the issue of whether
25 the respirator should be removed? We were talking
413
1 about the Karen Ann Quinlan case.
2 I really don't remember. I just
3 remember talking about her. I don't remember
4 exactly what was said.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Okay. Was that testimony you gave in
7 your deposition truthful? That you don't exactly
8 remember what was said?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Now you had a conference in this case
11 with Mr. Pearse, the guardian ad litem?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Do you know who Richard Pearse is?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And you knew before the conference with
16 Mr. Pearse that he would be issuing a report and a
17 recommendation to the Court on the question of
18 whether Terri's life support should be removed.
19 You knew that; didn't you?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Is it fair to say that you would tell
22 Mr. Pearse any information that you thought would
23 be helpful to your position in the case?
24 A I told Mr. Pearse the truth.
25 Q You told him the truth?
414
1 A Yes.
2 Q But that was not my question. My
3 question was, is it fair to say you would tell Mr.
4 Pearse any information you had which would help
5 your position in the case?
6 A I told Mr. Pearse -- the questions he
7 asked me, I answered them.
8 Q Are you saying that -- is your testimony
9 now that you only would tell Mr. Pearse what he
10 asked you and you would not add information if it
11 was helpful to your case, if he did not ask it
12 specifically?
13 A I -- yes. Maybe, you know, answer, but
14 I told Mr. Pearse whatever he asked.
15 Q Well, in your deposition, Page 45, Line
16 21, I asked you, question, you were talking about
17 Mr. Pearse, and is it fair to say you would
18 endeavor to tell him any information you would
19 think would be helpful to your position in this
20 case?
21 You answered probably. Yeah. Yes.
22 A Yes.
23 Q So now that we have straightened that
24 out, you would have told Mr. Pearse anything that
25 would help your position in the case; is that
415
1 correct?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Why didn't you tell Mr. Pearse that you
4 had a conversation with your daughter about the
5 Karen Ann Quinlan case in which she said let her
6 live?
7 A I don't remember. I don't remember. It
8 never came up. He didn't ask me. I didn't think
9 about it.
10 Q I think you also stated on your direct
11 examination that you knew of a friend of Terri’s,
12 Diane Meyer, I believe you mentioned was her name?
13 A Yeah.
14 Q In which you believe that Terri had a
15 conversation with Diane also about the Karen Ann
16 Quinlan case; is that correct?
17 A Yes.
18 Q You learned of that information about
19 two years ago?
20 A Yes.
21 Q By the same token, in your conversation,
22 your meeting with Mr. Pearse, why didn't you tell
23 him about Diane Meyer?
24 A I don't know.
25 Q You talked about the dismissal of your
416
1 prior lawsuit. Do you understand that your
2 lawsuit was dismissed with prejudice?
3 A That is what it said. I didn't
4 understand it.
5 Q In the pleadings in this case, in Mr.
6 Schiavo's petition, there is an allegation that
7 you dismissed the lawsuit with prejudice. In your
8 answer, in your answer you deny that allegation.
9 Do you know why that allegation was denied in your
10 answer?
11 A I don't understand the question.
12 Q Okay. You are aware that Mr. Schiavo
13 filed a petition with this court -- let me get to
14 it. Petition for Authorization to Discontinue
15 Artificial Life Support.
16 A Yes.
17 Q Are you aware of that petition?
18 A Yes.
19 Q In paragraph thirteen of the petition it
20 states, the ward's parents have previously claimed
21 before this court that petitioner has a conflict
22 of interest because he has been involved in a
23 relationship with a woman other than his wife and
24 that petitioner stands to inherit the ward's
25 estate. Is that true? Is that statement true?
417
1 A Yes.
2 Q And it says, the ward's parents
3 subsequently dismissed their claim with prejudice.
4 Is that true?
5 A Yes. That is what is in there. I did
6 not understand it.
7 Q My question is is that true?
8 A Yes.
9 Q In the answer you filed to the petition
10 regarding paragraph thirteen that I just read your
11 answer is denied.
12 A Yes.
13 Q My question is, since the allegations
14 are true, why is it that you denied it in your
15 answer?
16 A Denied?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Denied what?
19 Q The statement in Mr. Schiavo's petition
20 you said is true. My question is why in your
21 answer did you deny the truth of the statement?
22 A I'm sorry. I really don't understand
23 what you are trying to -- I don't understand.
24 Q Okay. Let me show you the answer filed
25 1 on your behalf. You talked about -- you also --
418
1 and I wrote this down -- you said you dismissed
2 your claim with prejudice or you decided to
3 dismiss your claim because we had to pay the
4 expenses for what they wanted to do. Do you
5 recall saying that?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you explain to me what that means?
8 A For another court hearing.
9 Q So in other words, you were under the
10 belief that you had to pay some court costs?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Were you under the belief that you had
13 to pay attorney's fees?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And it was your understanding that by
16 dismissing this, you would not have to pay the
17 fees and costs?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Is the real reason you dismissed this
20 claim with prejudice was to save fees and costs?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Now your -- let me ask you this. In
23 your husband's deposition -- in your deposition
24 you state that this claim was dismissed with
25 prejudice by your attorney without your knowledge
419
1 and consent. Are you retracting that? Is that
2 not true?
3 A I didn't understand what it meant.
4 Q Well, that's something different. You
5 didn't understand what it meant. My question is
6 are you still claiming that your attorney
7 dismissed your suit with prejudice without your
8 consent?
9 A If he dismissed it, all I can say is I
10 did not understand what it meant.
11 Q Okay. Now we know today that the reason
12 you dismissed it is so you did not have to pay
13 fees and costs; correct?
14 A Yes.
15 Q At that time, you made the charges in
16 that suit that Mr. Schiavo was abusing Terri by
17 not treating an infection; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Back then I would assume that your
20 daughter's life was important to you as well?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Why didn't you proceed? Why didn't you
23 proceed to remove Mr. Schiavo with your suit to
24 remove Mr. Schiavo as guardian so you would know
25 that would never happen again?
420
1 A Just repeat that please for me.
2 Q Why didn't you go ahead with that
3 lawsuit to have Mr. Schiavo removed so you would
4 know that not treating Terri would not happen
5 again?
6 A Because when we went to the hearing, the
7 guardian ad litem report said that everything was
8 okay, and I thought that was it.
9 Q We were talking before about your answer
10 to Mr. Schiavo's petition. Let me show you the
11 answer. Are you familiar with what I'm talking
12 about now when I say your answer to the petition?
13 A What is my answer? Which one?
14 Q My question was --
15 THE COURT: Mr. Felos uses the word
16 answer. The word "answer" means something
17 different to us than it does to a lay person.
18 Mrs. Schindler, answer means your response to your
19 son-in-law's petition. Does that help? I guess
20 not. I'm sorry.
21 Q (By Mr. Felos) Ma'am, my question was
22 in the answer filed by Ms. Campbell to Mr.
23 Schiavo's petition, you deny the truth of
24 paragraph thirteen of his petition. That is the
25 paragraph I read to you which you said was true.
421
1 My only question is, if what Mr. Schiavo
2 says in paragraph thirteen in his petition is
3 true, that you dismissed that case with prejudice,
4 why did you deny that?
5 A Mr. Felos, I didn't understand what
6 prejudice meant. That is all I can say.
7 Q Okay. When you found out -- you
8 testified that you found out from a nurse at Sabal
9 Palms that Terri was not being treated for an
10 infection?
11 A Yes.
12 Q And that is when she came back from the
13 hospital for having her gallbladder removed?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Do you dispute the gallbladder did not
16 occur in Sabal Palms, but it occurred at Palm
17 Gardens?
18 A No. I didn't know that. The nurse told
19 me it was her gallbladder. That's all I know.
20 Q Would you dispute Mr. Schiavo's -- would
21 you dispute a statement by Mr. Schiavo which says
22 Terri had her gallbladder removed while she was
23 residing at Palm Gardens?
24 A I don't know that.
25 Q 1 wrote down in your direct examination
422
1 that as a result of your conversation with this
2 nurse at Sabal Palms you believe that Terri was
3 not going to get any care. Now that opinion of
4 yours, the guardian ad litem who was appointed
5 reached a different opinion; didn't he?
6 A Yes.
7 Q In fact, you heard us read his report
8 that although Michael may be vocal at times, that
9 because of his vocal nature he got more care for
10 Terri than she otherwise would have gotten. Do
11 you remember that?
12 A I heard that.
13 Q Do you dispute that?
14 A I don't know that.
15 Q My question was do you dispute that?
16 A I don't know about that.
17 Q Well, up to the time that you and Mr.
18 Schiavo had a falling out, didn't Michael do
19 everything in his power to see that Terri's daily
20 needs were cared for?
21 A Yes.
22 Q I heard you say you were not part of the
23 malpractice case; is that correct?
24 A Yes.
25 Q You did testify as a witness though;
423
1 didn't you?
2 A Yes.
3 Q You also testified that Michael moved
4 out of your house because he said -- or moved out
5 of the house you and he were living in because he
6 wanted to move on with his life?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Isn't the real reason he moved out is
9 that his parents moved down to Florida, so he
10 decided to move in with his parents?
11 A Not at that time.
12 Q You dispute that he moved from the house
13 you were living in together into his parent's
14 home?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Now there were two residences in which
17 you and Mr. Schiavo, you and your husband and Mr.
18 Schiavo lived in together?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is it correct that in the first
21 residence both -- that was a residence leased both
22 by you and Mr. Schiavo?
23 A No.
24 Q Whose house was it?
25 A It was in Michael's name, but we shared
424
1 everything.
2 Q So the house was Michael's, and you
3 lived in his house and shared expenses?
4 A Right. Yes.
5 Q You mentioned something about your
6 financial condition. You mentioned about your
7 financial condition at Sabal Palms. I think I
8 wrote in my notes that your personal financial
9 situation was not good?
10 A That's right.
11 Q Was that around -- were you referring to
12 the time that Mr. Schindler and Mr. Schiavo had
13 that fight or dispute at the nursing home?
14 A Yes.
15 Q That was around the time period just
16 after the trial; was it not?
17 A Yes.
18 Q In your deposition in August, I asked
19 you on Page 69, Line 2, Question. Did you have,
20 around the time period after the trial, did you
21 have a financial need?
22 Answer. No.
23 Question. For funds?
24 No.
25 1 Then I asked you on line 25. Question.
425
1 What would you estimate your net worth and that of
2 your husband was in February of 1993?
3 Answer. I don't remember. I really
4 don't remember.
5 Question. Did you consider yourself
6 well off at that time?
7 Answer. We were comfortable.
8 Now your statement, your testimony in
9 your deposition approximately seven months ago, or
10 less than that, five months ago or so, was that
11 you had no need for funds and your financial
12 position was comfortable.
13 You stated today in your testimony that
14 at that time your financial situation was not
15 good. Can you explain the difference in these two
16 testimonies? Your testimony here today and your
17 testimony a few months ago?
18 A We were comfortable, but still trying to
19 recover.
20 Q So your testimony is, I gather you had
21 no need for funds, but your financial situation
22 was not good; is that correct?
23 A We were comfortable --
24 Q Did you have a need for --
25 A -- but our financial situation was not
426
1 wonderful.
2 Q You also testified on direct
3 examination about the trust fund or account that
4 was set up for the money that was being raised for
5 Terri's care was deposited in an account at First
6
7 A Yes.
8 Q Isn't it a fact that your name was on
9 that account along with Michael's?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Did I get your testimony right on direct
12 that you didn't know that Terri wanted to get
13 pregnant and wanted to have children?
14 A I don't remember her telling me that.
15 Q Did you consider yourself having a close
16 relationship?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Now in the deposition of, I believe both
19 of your siblings, they make mention of Terri
20 telling them that?
21 A Well, maybe she told them.
22 Q But that is not something you recall
23 Terri telling you?
24 A We never discussed that that much.
25 Q How long did Michael work at Agostino's
427
1 restaurant?
2 A Maybe a year prior to Terri's -- a year,
3 year-and-a-half.
4 Q Year-and-a-half?
5 A Prior to Terri's problem. Prior to
6 Terri's problem.
7 Q Was Michael unemployed for long periods
8 of time?
9 A Yes.
10 Q When was that?
11 A Between jobs.
12 Q How much time would you consider long?
13 A couple weeks? A month?
14 A No. Longer than that.
15 Q Do you know how many hours Michael
16 worked at Agostino's?
17 A Um, no. Not really.
18 Q Do you know that he worked till closing
19 and closed the restaurant?
20 A Yes.
21 Q He worked on weekends?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Does that sound like being lazy to you?
24 A I'm not talking about that.
25 Q At the nursing home where you worked,
428
1 your work was doing activities with people?
2 A Yes.
3 Q But did you or did you not work with
4 patients who were intubated?
5 A Yes.
6 Q In your deposition on Page 10, Line 2
7 Line 7, I asked you, question, we were talking
8 about your work at the nursing home. Did you work
9 with any patients at that time who were
10 intubated?
11 Answer. No.
12 Can you please explain why six months
13 ago or five months ago under oath you said you did
14 not work with intubated patients and now today you
15 say you did?
16 A All I know is that when we used to have
17 -- I didn't work with them, per se. They used to
18 come into the rooms. They would be there for
19 activities. I never -- I used to read to them. I
20 never worked with them. They would come into the
21 room when we had activities. They would listen to
22 the music. They would be there in the room with
23 us.
24 Q But your work was reading to them? You
25 got paid for this; did you not?
429
1 A Yes.
2 Q Isn't it a fact that you don't, don't
3 know for a fact what qualifications, if any, a
4 person needs to be an activities director of a
5 nursing home?
6 A I don't know it, but they told me when I
7 started there in order to be a director, an
8 activities director, you had to go for schooling
9 at least two years.
10 Q So you received some hearsay information
11 from somebody. This is what somebody told you?
12 A From the director of the nursing home.
13 Q But you don't know that for a fact?
14 A No. I don't.
15 Q But certainly you did not need any
16 special training or license or education for your
17 position as an assistant activities director; did
18 you?
19 A No.
20 Q You had testimony about your husband's
21 brother. I believe you mentioned his name is Fred
22 Schindler?
23 A Yes.
24 Q He was in that accident in 1980?
25 A Yes.
430
1 Q He was in a coma for a while?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Right side paralysis?
4 A Yes.
5 Q He still has paralysis; doesn't he?
6 believe you said it was permanent?
7 A Yes. But it got better after he went to
8 rehab in Colorado.
9 Q He improved, but after his improvement,
10 he still is permanently impaired; wasn't he?
11 A No. He wasn't. Well, permanently
12 impaired?
13 Q Um-hmm.
14 A How do you mean?
15 Q In 1986 was your husband's brother,
16 Fred, impaired? Paralyzed partially.
17 A Yes. In '80.
18 Q I asked you in 1986?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Yes.
So at the time period Mr. Schiavo
21 says he had a conversation with Terri about her
22 uncle in '86, the uncle was paralyzed, partially
23 paralyzed?
24 A Partially.
25 Q And he lived with Mr. Schindler's mother
431
1 at that time; didn't he?
2 A No.
3 Q Didn't you testify on direct that he
4 lived with Mr. Schindler's mother until her death?
5 A She lived with him. It was his house.
6 Q Excuse me. They lived together?
7 A She moved in there to take care of his
8 children.
9 Q Is it your testimony that -- was it your
10 1 testimony that Terri was present for her
11 grandmother's death? Mr. Schindler's mother's
12 death?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Isn't it a fact that she was in Florida
15 with Michael --
16 A No.
17 Q -- when the grandmother died?
18 A No.
19 Q You mentioned, you were very specific
20 in your direct examination, very specific that the
21 grandmother had two hospitalizations?
22 A Yes.
23 Q One in October of 1985 and one later on.
24 I believe you said she died in March 1986?
25 A Yes.
431
1 at that time; didn't he?
2 A No.
3 Q Didn't you testify on direct that he
4 lived with Mr. Schindler's mother until her death?
5 A She lived with him. It was his house.
6 Q Excuse me. They lived together?
7 A She moved in there to take care of his
8 children.
9 Q Is it your testimony that -- was it your
10 testimony that Terri was present for her
11 grandmother's death? Mr. Schindler's mother's
12 death?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Isn't it a fact that she was in Florida
15 with Michael --
16 A No.
17 Q -- when the grandmother died?
18 A No.
19 Q You mentioned, you were very specific
20 in your direct examination, very specific that the
21 grandmother had two hospitalizations?
22 A Yes.
23 Q One in October of 1985 and one later on.
24 I believe you said she died in March 1986?
25 A Yes.
432
1 Q Are you sure of that, or perhaps there
2 I was one hospitalization, she was in the hospital
3 for awhile, and it resulted in her death?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you have a clear recollection of the
6 events regarding your mother-in-law's death?
7 A Yes.
8 Q In your deposition last August, on Page
9 47 and 48, we were talking about the illness of
10 your mother-in-law and your mother-in-law being on
11 a respirator, and also the conversation that you
12 said the family had that your husband decided to
13 put his mother on a respirator and the family
14 supported him. Do you recall that?
15 A Yes.
16 I Q The family supported him. Do you recall
17 that?
18 A Yes.
19 Q I asked you on Page 27, Line 21,
20 Question. When and where did this conversation
21 occur?
22 Answer. Probably after we came back
23 from visiting my mother-in-law.
24 Question. When you came back?
25 1 Answer. Probably when we all came back
433
1 from visiting my mother-in-law. This is before we
2 moved to Florida, though.
3 Question. Okay. So prior to 1986,
4 that's when Terri moved to Florida?
5 Answer. Uh-huh.
6 Question. So prior to 1986 you and
7 Terri visited your mother-in-law?
8 Answer. All of us did.
9 Question. Okay. Do you know what the
10 I a r was. Okay. Do you know what year this was?
11 Answer. No. I don't remember when she
12 was in the hospital.
13 Question. Was it before Terri married
14 and left the home?
15 Answer. Yes. It had to be. It had to
16 be.
17 Question. Okay. What life support was
18 your mother-in-law on?
19 Answer. She was on a respirator.
20 Ma'am, in your deposition five months
21 ago, you stated that your mother-in-law was on a
22 respirator; the conversation between the family
23 before her death about putting her on a respirator
Z4 all occurred before Terri married and left the
25 home. Now Terri married in November of 1984?
434
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you explain why you couldn't even
3 remember the year that this occurred, but now you
4 know not only the year but the exact month this
5 conversation occurred?
6 A Well, because I got the dates mixed up.
7 She died in '86 in March. Terri was married in
8 '84. So it had to have been after Terri got
9 married.
10 Q Isn't it true that you don't remember,
11 I you don't remember exactly when Terri and Michael
12 took a trip to Florida?
13 A No.
14 Q You mentioned that back in Philadelphia
15 Mike worked at a McDonald's?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Isn't it true that he was the manager of
18 the McDonald's?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Do you recall Mike, Mr. Schiavo, ever
21 being in an automobile accident while he was
22 visiting in Florida?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Don't you recall that when he called
25 home and you were told about that, you informed
435
1 him that Mr. Schindler's mother died?
2 A No.
3 Q You sure that was not the time?
4 A No.
5 Q Do you think whether the patient
6 experiences pain should be a factor in whether to
7 remove life support?
8 A Everybody experiences pain at some time.
9 Q But isn't it true that it is your
10 position that the degree of pain experienced by
11 someone should not be a factor in considering
12 whether or not to remove artificial life support?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Isn't what you would like to see happen,
15 Mrs. Schindler, is to have Mr. Schiavo remarry,
16 divorce Terri, then have Terri's care left to you
17 and your husband? Isn't that what you would like
18 to see happen?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And is it fair to say that what we might
21 expect for Terri in the future regarding medical
22 treatment and medical procedures is what you have
23 stated already?
24 A I don't know that.
25 Q That every possible medical treatment
436
1 should be used to keep her alive? Isn't that what
2 we would expect?
3 A Yes.
4 I Q Isn't it true that we could expect that
5 for Terri because that is what you would want for
6 yourself?
7 A I want it for my daughter.
8 Q Is the reason you want it for your
9 daughter because that is what you would want for
10 yourself?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Mrs. Schindler, are you aware if you
13 prevail in this case that there is a possibility
14 you could gain a substantial amount of money?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Is that yes?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Wasn't it the issue of finances that
19 caused the rift between you and your husband and
20 Mr. Schiavo?
21 A That had nothing to do with Terri's
22 money.
23 Q Weren't you upset over the fact that
24 Mr. Schiavo would not share his award with you?
25 A His award, yes.
437
1 Q If the money did not matter, why were
2 you upset that he would not share his award?
3 A Because at the time of the trial,
4 Michael kept saying that he would.
5 Q You heard Mr. Schiavo's testimony that
6 the first facility that your daughter went to was
7 Northside Hospital --
8 A Yes.
9 Q -- after her incident. She was there
10 about 3-and-a-half months?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you dispute his testimony that he
13 stayed there day and night for sixteen days with
14 her?
15 A We all did.
16 Q You don't dispute his testimony?
17 A No.
18 Q Is it fair to say that in the first few
19 months while Terri was at Humana Northside that
20 she did not exhibit any of the responses she
21 exhibits today?
22 A Yes.
23 Q Yes. It's fair to say that?
24 A Yes. It's fair to say that.
25 Q 1 She was basically unresponsive those
438
1 first three months?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Isn't it true that Terri's arms and legs
4 move?
5 A Yes.
6 Q But isn't it true that you have no idea
7 whether it's a reflexive action or voluntary
8 action?
9 A I don't know.
10 Q One of the signs that you take that
11 Terris [sic] is aware of your presence is because her
12 head will follow your voice?
13 A Yes.
14 But that does not occur all the time;
15 does it?
16 A No.
17 Q Is it true you desperately want to
18 believe that your daughter is aware of your
19 presence?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. FELOS: I have no other questions,
22 Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Redirect?
24
25
439
1 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
2 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
3 Q Thank you. Mrs. Schindler, do you know
4 Theresa's intent as to what she would want to do
5 regarding the feeding tube?
6 A No. No. I don't.
7 Q You have heard many times through this
8 Mr. Schiavo's stories about Terri telling him that
9 she would not want to be kept alive like this on
10 the train trip?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Do you believe that story?
13 A No.
14 Q Why don't you believe that story?
15 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, it's for the
16 Court to determine whether witnesses are believed
17 or not. Whether Mrs. Schindler believes Mr.
18 Schiavo's story is not relevant.
19 THE COURT: I don't think, phrased that
20 way, it's relevant. Why she believes. Why would
21 it be relevant?
22 MS. CAMPBELL: In the earlier part of
23 Mr. Felos's cross-examination, he was asking her
24 about Theresa's intent as expressed to Michael.
25 Mrs. Schindler testified that she did not believe
440
1 it. It was pressed as to why wouldn't she accept
2 Theresa's intent.
3 I think that Mrs. Schindler, there's a
4 reason why she does not believe Michael's story
5 and that is why she did not believe Theresa's
6 intent. That is why I believe it's relevant.
7 MR. FELOS: The questions on cross had
8 to do with a hypothetical question. Assume that
9 Terri said this, this was her intent. Does that
10 change her position? She said, well, I don't
11 think it does. I said assume it does. Does that
12 change your position? She said no.
13 I could ask every witness whether they
14 believe the other witness's testimony, but it's
15 not relevant or proper.
16 THE COURT: She's doing more that that.
17 She's asking the reasons why she might not believe
18 it. For whatever it's worth, I'll allow it.
19 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler, why
20 do you not believe Michael's statement?
21 A Because I don't believe Terri would ever
22 say anything like that.
23 MR. FELOS: I object. Move to strike
24 the answer. That is completely without foundation
25 as to her belief of what somebody else might say.
441
1 THE COURT: Well, I allowed the
2 question. I guess were stuck with the answer.
3 MS. CAMPBELL: I'll move on. Thank you.
4 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler, since
5 the time of the deposition that was taken by Mr.
6 Felos in August of 1999, have you had more time to
7 think about the time frame and sequence of events
8 pertaining specifically to the '85/'86 time frame
9 of the train trip?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Was there anything that you had at home
12 maybe that helped you to remember any of those
13 dates?
14 A Yes. We had found a calendar.
15 Q What did the calendar reveal to help you
16 refresh your memory?
17 A It had the times that my husband and the
18 times that Terri and Mike took their trips to
19 Florida.
20 Q Why was the calendar kept?
21 A My husband kept it for tax purposes for
22 our condo, and he was coming down periodically to
23 look for work, so he kept it.
24 Q And he would stay in the condo when he
25 came to St. Petersburg?
442
1 A Yes.
2 Q Are you aware of how many times Theresa
3 took a train trip, specifically from Pennsylvania
4 to Florida, between 1985 and 1986?
5 A Once.
6 Q You are not aware of any other times;
7 right?
8 A The train trip?
9 Q Right.
10 A No.
11 Q Why is it then in your mind that you
12 remember October for the train trip as opposed to
13 the following year when Mrs. Schindler died?
14 A Because when they came down on the train
15 it was Michael, Terri, and Brian. And my husband
16 was already down there.
17 Q Down there meaning Florida?
18 A In Florida.
19 Q That was prior to the death of
20 Mrs. Schindler?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Do you recall watching the movie about
23 Karen Ann Quinlan?
24 A The movie? No. I don't think I watched
25 it.
443
1 Q Just a minute ago you were talking to
2 Mr. Felos regarding the distinction between
3 Michael's award and Theresa's award. Can you
4 explain what you mean by that?
5 A Well, when they had the trial for
6 Terri's malpractice, Terri got an award from the
7 doctor. Then she got two awards. One from the
8 doctor from his insurance. Then the other doctor
9 did not settle, and the gynecologist, and they
10 sued him and she got an award from him. Then they
11 gave Michael an award for, I think it was loss of
12 consortium.
13 Q In your discussions with Michael about
14 sharing in any award, did you ever believe that
15 was sharing in any award of Terri's?
16 A No.
17 Q What did that sharing in award mean to
18 you?
19 A It meant if Michael received anything in
20 the lawsuit we would, you know, he would maybe
21 share some of that money. Terri's money was for
22 her. To take care of her.
23 Q What was -- the sharing of the money,
24 what were your plans for that money?
25 A We were going to take her to doctors.
444
1 We were going to do tests on her. Maybe buy a
2 house. Bring her home so she would not be in a
3 nursing home anymore. We could live there. We
4 could have nursing. Things to help her.
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. No further
6 questions.
7 THE COURT: Anything further,
8 Mr. Felos?
9 MR. FELOS: Yes, sir.
10 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FELOS:
12 Q Do you have that calendar with you?
13 A No. I don't.
14 Q Now I believe you were asked after the
15 deposition whether you had an opportunity to
16 review dates, get information, more information
17 about things; is that correct?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Well, are you saying that you received
20 no instructions from anyone before your deposition
21 to think about these things beforehand?
22 A Instructions about what, Mr. Felos?
23 Q You knew in August that your deposition
24 was being taken in this case?
25 A Yes.
445
1 Q You knew all about what the case was
2 about. You knew the things that, the general area
3 of subjects that you would be asked about?
4 A Yes. But I did not know what questions
5 you would ask me.
6 Q Well, not specific questions. Were you
7 told to review dates and prepare for your
8 deposition beforehand?
9 A I was told to think about dates and
10 stuff. Yes.
11 MR. FELOS: And -- that's all, Your
12 Honor.
13 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Campbell,
14 anything further?
15 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Thank you, ma'am. You may
17 step down. Let's take five minutes and call your
18 next witness.
19 MS. CAMPBELL: That's fine.
20 (THEREUPON, A RECESS WAS HAD FROM 4:10 P.M.
21 - 4:15 P.M.)
22 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit court
23 is back in session.
24 THE COURT: All right. Be seated,
25 please. Call your next witness.
446
1 MS. CAMPBELL: I would like to call
2 Michael Vitadamo.
3 THE BAILIFF: Please stand here, sir.
4 Face the Court. Raise your right hand to be
5 sworn.
6 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
7 THE COURT.)
8 THE BAILIFF: Have a seat in the
9 witness stand and speak in a loud and clear voice
10 for the Court.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
13 Q Mr. Vitadamo, state your name and spell
14 your last name for the Court.
15 A Michael Vitadamo, V-i-t-a-d-a-m-o.
16 Q What is your occupation, please?
17 A Self-employed.
18 Q What do you do?
19 A I have a janitorial service.
20 Q Where do you live?
22 Q Do you recognize this package?
23 A Yes.
24 Q What does this package look like to you?
25 A That is a VHS cassette tape package.
447
1 Q This box contains the video?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Last Saturday, what were you doing on
4 Saturday?
5 A I guess Bob asked me to go to Palm
6 Gardens. Met them up there. This was about 10:30
7 in the morning.
8 Q Bob who?
9 A Bob Schindler.
10 Q How do you know Mr. Schindler?
11 A Suzanne and I know each other from
12 working out at the gym.
13 Q Suzanne is Suzanne Carr, Mr. Schindler's
14 daughter?
15 A Yes. I'm sorry.
16 Q And you were requested to do what now?
17 A Bob asked me to go up and videotape some
18 of Terri's activities, because I have a video
19 camera and they did not have one. So I said sure.
20 Q Have you been to visit Terri before?
21 A I had seen her on, I think two other
22 occasions.
23 Q On that Saturday, could you please
24 describe when you went to the nursing home what
25 happened?
448
1 A I walked in with Suzanne Carr and I
2 loaded the camera up. I looked for a plug and I
3 could not really find anywhere to plug it in. I
4 guess I went along the right side of Terri's bed
5 and found a plug and plugged it in. I put the VHS
6 tape in there. Mary had walked in and around
7 while I was doing that. I pointed the camera at
8 her. I pressed record to make sure it was
9 working.
10 I saw that in fact it was working. I
11 shut it off. I said, "Okay. Mary, what do you
12 want me to do?" She said just go ahead and I'll
13 talk to Terri. Go ahead and record it. That is
14 what I did.
15 Q How much of a length of time before
16 your started recording?
17 A Fifteen seconds. Ten seconds.
18 Q Was there any reason as to why you did
19 the videotape for a short amount of time versus
20 the entire visit?
21 A As I said before, I am self-employed. I
22 was working. I had a very short amount of time.
23 I went in there, did what they asked me to do, and
24 I just left.
25 MS. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, I now would
449
1 like to enter this videotape into evidence to show
2 Mr. Vitadamo -- make sure this is the same
3 videotape he took on that day.
4 THE COURT: Do you wish to voir dire,
5 Mr. Felos?
6 MR. FELOS: Yes, Your Honor.
7 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. FELOS:
9 Q Is it Mr. Vitadamo?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Mr. Vitadamo, I am George Felos,
12 attorney for Michael Schiavo. Do you own a
13 janitorial service?
14 A Yes.
15 Q How long have you owned that business?
16 A About sixteen years.
17 Q When you say you know Bob Schindler, are
18 you referring to Robert Sr. or Jr.?
19 A Actually, both.
20 Q How long have you known Mr. Schindler,
21 Sr.?
22 A About five years. Four-and-a-half.
23 Q And Mr. Schindler, Jr.?
24 A The same.
25 Q Who actually called you to ask if you
4 50
1 had a video camera and could tape something?
2 A I think Suzanne asked me. Suzanne Carr
3 asked me for her dad.
4 Q Um-hmm.
5 A And I told her yes.
6 Q You mentioned that you met Suzanne at
7 the gym?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Are you in any -- do you see each other
10 often outside of the gym?
11 A Outside? Occasionally.
12 Q Do you date at all?
13 A We go out sometimes. Sure.
14 Q Is it a romantic relationship?
15 A No.
16 Q Why is it -- prior to this Saturday,
17 when is it that you visited Theresa Schiavo?
18 A Um, I don't -- I honestly don't recall.
19 Q Would it be days, weeks, months?
20 A God, it was probably a year or more.
21 Q Who did you go to the nursing home with?
22 A I met the Schindlers there.
23 Q So you drove by yourself?
24 A Yes.
25 Q Which of the Schindlers were there at
451
1 the nursing home?
2 A Bob. Mary. Suzanne Carr and her
3 daughter, Alex.
4 Q Where did you see them when you arrived
5 at the nursing home?
6 A The front of the building.
7 Q Did all five of you then enter the
8 nursing home together?
9 A No.
10 Q Did some of you go in first?
11 A Suzanne and I went in and Mrs. Schindler
12 was right behind us
13 A How about Mr. Schindler?
14 A He, I believe he waited outside with his
15 granddaughter.
16 Q When you went into the nursing home, is
17 there a reception desk, I believe, there?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Was there anyone at the desk?
20 A I honestly don't recall.
21 Q Did you inform any of the nursing home
22 administrative personnel that you were there to
23 take a videotape of one of their patients?
24 A No.
25 Q Did you ask for permission of any
452
1 nursing home personnel to do that?
2 A No.
3 Q Were you told or did you ask or told
4 what the purpose of this videotape was?
5 A Very vaguely. Just that they wanted to
6 capture some of Terri's activities.
7 Q Did you know the Schindlers were going
8 through a trial at this time?
9 A Suzanne talked to me a little bit about
10 it. Not in any depth.
11 Q Did you know there was a trial going on
12 at this time?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Were you told or explained that the tape
15 that you were making would be shown at trial or
16 might be shown at trial?
17 A I did not ask. They did not offer.
18 Q So you didn't know?
19 A No.
20 Q On that visit to the nursing home last
21 Saturday, when is the first time that you actually
22 saw Theresa? Where was she?
23 A I think she was in bed. In her bed.
24 Q Are you sure?
25 A Yes. She was in bed.
453
1 Q What was she wearing?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q When you entered the -- did you go to
4 Theresa's room along with Suzanne and Mrs.
5 Schindler? Did all three of you go together?
6 A Yes. Mrs. Schindler was right with us.
7 We kind of walked in together.
8 Q Once you entered the room, how much time
9 elapsed before you actually started videotaping?
10 A As long as it took me to plug in my
11 recorder and place the VHS cassette in. Two
12 minutes.
13 Q As you entered the room, did you hear
14 Terri moaning?
15 A No.
16 Q Did you hear Terri moaning at all?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Or making a sound at all through the
19 time you were there?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When did that start?
22 A Pretty sure after Mary had said, "Hello
23 Terri, mommy is here." Something to that effect.
24 Q Did you decide to stop taping yourself
25 or were you instructed by somebody to stop the
454
1 tape?
2 A Well, Bob had told me that once Terri
3 was aroused in that way that after she had
4 interaction with Mary Schindler, once she calmed
5 down, it could be hours before she had any
6 activity again. It could be 15 minutes. Could be
7 an hour. So I was, being on a time restraint, I
8 had to leave.
9 Q So is it your testimony that it was you
10 who said we need to stop the tape now?
11 A Um, no. I believe Mary told me that was
12 enough.
13 Q So Mrs. Schindler instructed you?
14 A Yes. Because I guess --
15 Q I'm not asking you to guess.
16 A Okay. I'm sorry. Once Terri calmed
17 down, Mary said that is enough.
18 Q So you stopped taping because Mrs.
19 Schindler instructed you to?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Now you mentioned that there was a small
22 gap in the tape?
23 A Yes.
24 Q As I understand it, you put the tape in
25 and you started recording to see if it was working
455
1 all right?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How did you determine the tape was
4 working?
5 A I turned it on. Hit record. Saw Mary
6 up in the little whatever, viewer.
7 Q Is it one of those recorders that has
8 like the liquid digital display?
9 A It is very old. I purchased it in
10 1988. It is very old.
11 Q In other words, you see a picture of
12 what you are recording?
13 A Yes.
14 Q That is how you know it is working?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Well, when you started recording and you
17 saw the picture and knew that it was recording,
18 why did you shut it off?
19 A Because I wanted -- I didn't have a
20 tripod, so I wanted to make sure I positioned
21 myself in a place where I could focus on Theresa
22 and Mrs. Schindler and I would not have to move
23 anymore. That is why I stopped.
24 Q So let me understand, did you have a
25 tripod with you?
456
1 A No. I did not.
2 Q So you stopped the tape to position
3 yourself?
4 A Yes. So there would not be -- once I
5 determined it was working, I put it where I was
6 supposed to be recording and left it there.
7 Q Okay. Had Mrs. Schindler asked you --
8 had Mrs. Schindler not asked you to stop
9 recording, would you have recorded more?
10 A Honestly, probably not that much longer.
11 Q What would you estimate the time was in
12 between when you stopped recording the tape,
13 positioned yourself, and started recording again?
14 A Ten or fifteen seconds.
15 Q That is the time period -- is it fair to
16 say in that 10 or 15 second interval is when Mrs.
17 Schindler walked over to Terri, sat down, and then
18 you started taping?
19 A Yes. She was literally standing two
20 feet away from the bed.
21 Q So it would have been possible at that
22 time -- was Terri facing -- was her--head turned to
23 one side or the other?
24 A I honestly don't recall.
25 Q Assuming her head was turned to one
457
1 side, is it possible Mrs. Schindler may have
2 walked to the side of Terri's bed where her head
3 was not turned, started talking, and then moved
4 back to the other side? Do you see what she was
5 doing?
6 A No. I honestly focused the camera where
7 it was supposed to be. I kind of positioned
8 myself near the window where there was some
9 sunlight coming in.
10 Q So you were busy doing that? Positoning [sic]
11 yourself?
12 A Yes. I'm not a professional, so it was
13 the best I could.
14 Q You don't know whether Mrs. Schindler or
15 anyone else took those 10 or 15 seconds to test
16 Terri's responses at all; do you?
17 A No.
18 MR. FELOS: No further questions,
19 Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Felos.
21 MR. FELOS: If there is no redirect --
22 if I may, Your Honor, just one more question?
23 THE COURT: Yes sir.
24 Q (By Mr. Felos) Where was Ms. Carr and
25 Mr. Schindler and the granddaughter at the time
458
1 you were taping?
2 A Suzanne, I believe, was to my right.
3 Mr. Schindler was outside with his granddaughter.
4 Q Have you seen the videotape?
5 A Um, I checked the viewer to make sure it
6 recorded, then I --
7 Q But you did not view the tape?
8 A Yes. I checked it through the viewer.
9 Yes.
10 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I renew my
11 objections, all the previous objections I raised
12 to the tape, and in addition to that, also raise
13 the objection that we do have a period in this
14 tape that at least the maker of this tape cannot
15 account for. Cannot account to what the
16 participants were doing in this tape.
17 We don't know whether Mrs. Schindler or
18 anyone else, you know -- there is moaning on the
19 tape -- whether they pinched Terri; tried to
20 provoke a response. Asked a question on one side;
21 got a response. Did not get a response. Asked a
22 question on the other side.
23 If this were a tape, Your Honor, of the
24 entire visit, or 30 minutes or something like that
25 to give us a broad sample of the responses of
459
1 Theresa Schiavo that initial gap may not be
2 important, but given the brevity of this tape, it
3 may have great importance as to how the brief tape
4 would be interpreted.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Felos, you are giving me
6 an argument on my going out to the nursing home,
7 which you argued against last week, and I denied
8 without prejudice Ms. Campbell's request. I don't
9 know what this is going to show me. I don't know
10 what a snippet from this lady's day will tell me
11 but out of -- I really don't feel good about
12 seeing it. I will say that. Because of the fact
13 that I don't know what occurred prior.
14 But with all those reservations, I think
15 I would be remiss if I did not see it. There is
16 so much at stake in this case, that I'm not going
17 to hold quite as firm to the proffer of Erhardt in
18 cases that have been ruled on. So I'll see it.
19 And let me suggest this to you. We
20 probably ought to turn the television facing the
21 windows over here because there is more people on
22 this side that need to be relocated. The ones on
23 your side may or may not need to see it, because
24 it is being offered in your behalf, and I'll walk
25 around and stand by the railing. That way I think
460
1 is best.
2 The tape, itself, will be in evidence.
3 I assume there is audio on the tape?
4 MS. CAMBELL: Yes.
5 THE COURT: The audio on the tape, madam
6 reporter, will suffice, unless there is an
7 objection. Mr. Felos, do you wish the reporter to
8 attempt to transcribe what is on the tape?
9 MR. FELOS: No, Your Honor. I think the
10 audio is enough.
11 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell, is that
12 sufficient?
13 MS. CAMPBELL: That is sufficient.
14 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I would like to
15 ask a couple of questions. Whether opposing
16 counsel intends to bring Mrs. Schindler back on
17 the stand to testify to the contents of the tape.
18 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor.
19 MR. FELOS: Because my request is to
20 renew my cross of Mrs. Schindler, now having seen
21 the tape.
22 THE COURT: Well, you've got an
23 affirmative answer, Mr. Felos. Is that the best
24 angle to prevent glare or should it be more facing
25 directly?
461
1 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I would also
2 request, having viewed this tape myself, that the
3 Court view it at least, at least two or three
4 times. My experience has been, in reviewing
5 these, that the more -- the more times you view
6 it, the more you see. I request that the Court
7 view it more than once.
8 THE COURT: It's going to be in
9 evidence. I'll review it like I review any other
10 evidence I have -- review affidavits, report from
11 that national center.
12 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEOTAPE WAS PLAYED FROM
13 APPROXIMATELY 4:32 - 4:34 P.M.)
14 MS. CAMPBELL: That is the end of the
15 videotape. Do you want to see it a second time
16 now?
17 THE COURT: No, ma'am. Not this
18 afternoon.
19 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you.
20 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, can this
21 television remain here? I would request it remain
22 through the balance of the trial, as the tape may
23 be used in the examination of witnesses,
24 certainly on rebuttal.
25 THE COURT: We certainly can retain
462
1 that. I don't think that is in the way.
2 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe, Your Honor,
3 that the equipment is available here in the
4 courthouse. They brought it in this morning for
5 us. I think it is a matter where it is being used
6 at the time in the courthouse.
7 THE COURT: Let's keep it here. If
8 somebody needs it, we are in somewhat control.
9 Does that make sense, Mr. Sheriff?
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
11 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
12 Q Mr. Vitadamo, this is the videotape you
13 took last Saturday?
14 A Yes. It is.
15 Q After the videotape was concluded, after
16 you stopped it, did anything else occur after that
17 while you were there?
18 A I just left. I turned the video off,
19 gave the tape to Suzanne, and immediately just
20 left.
21 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you. No further
22 questions of Mr. Vitadamo.
23 THE COURT: Any further questions,
24 Mr. Felos?
25 MR. FELOS: Yes.
463
1 THE COURT: Do you wish to admit the
2 tape?
3 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes.
4 THE COURT: I believe it is your first.
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes. Number one.
6 THE COURT: The record will note this is
7 still over Mr. Felon's objection.
8 (THEREUPON, RESPONDENT'S EXHIBIT 1 WAS
9 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE.)
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. FELOS:
12 Q Mr. Vitadamo, I recall you testifying
13 that Terri was not moaning as you entered the
14 room, but was moaning, started moaning when her
15 mother started talking to her. Is that what you
16 testified?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Correct me from what -- if I am wrong.
19 From what I saw on this tape, when the tape
20 started, Mrs. Schindler was not next to Terri, she
21 was still entering the room where she was standing
22 up?
23 A She was standing, like I said, two feet
24 away from the bed. Three feet.
25 Q Isn't the first thing we hear on the
464
1 tape moaning?
2 A Yes.
3 So Theresa Schiavo did not start moaning
4 when her mother sat down and talked to her, she
5 was moaning the instant this tape started; isn't
6 that correct?
7 A To the -- viewing it this time, it
8 sounded that way. Saturday I was just
9 concentrating on the camera. I couldn't have
10 sworn to it then.
11 MR. FELOS: Thank you. No other
12 questions.
13 THE COURT: Any redirect?
14 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: You may stand down, sir.
16 MS. CAMPBELL: I now would like to
17 recall Mrs. Schindler to the stand.
18 THE COURT: Ma'am, you are still under
19 oath.
20 MRS. SCHINDLER: Yes, Your Honor.
21 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
23 Q Mrs. Schindler, now that you have
24 watched this videotape, is that a depiction of
25 what occurred on Saturday?
465
1 A Yes.
2 Q Can you please describe what happened
3 prior to that videotape beginning?
4 A We went in. Mr. Vitadamo set up. I was
5 standing. Terri was here in bed. I was standing
6 against the -- over by the window. I waited for
7 him to start the tape. Then I walked over.
8 Q Did you call out to Terri in any manner
9 prior to the videotape beginning?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you pinch Terri in any way?
12 A No.
13 Q Do anything else to startle her or to
14 cause her to make the moaning or laughing sound?
15 A No.
16 Q Please describe your interpretation of
17 Terri's actions. Or what are your observations of
18 Terri in the beginning of this videotape?
19 A When I started talking to her, it looked
20 like she smiled. Then she started crying. Then I
21 just kept talking to her and talking to her until
22 she just calmed right down, which is not -- she's
23 done it before.
24 Q Done what before?
25 A Like she laughed or cried a lot, and I
466
1 tried to calm her down, and she calms down.
2 Q This smile that you believe you saw in
3 the beginning part, is that the way she would
4 generally smile with you on other visits?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Is it always a pattern of smile, then
7 crying?
8 A No.
9 Q Is there a pattern to how she reacts
10 the same each time?
11 A No.
12 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object to the
13 form of that question. Is there a pattern to the
14 way she reacts the same each time,
15 MS. CAMPBELL: Let me redo this.
16 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Mrs. Schindler, you
17 stated Terri reacts most of the time when you
18 visit with Terri?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Is this reaction typical of how she has
21 reacted with you in the past?
22 A No.
23 Q How is it different?
24 A Most of the time I get laughter. She
25 laughs. She smiles. Most of the time it is
467
1 laughing. Once in a while she will cry like this.
2 If I just talk to her and talk to her, she stops.
3 Q So you are saying if you talk to her and
4 talk to her, you are referring to when she is
5 crying?
6 A When she is crying, I can calm her down.
7 Q After the videotape stopped, then what
8 occurred in the room?
9 A Then Michael left. Suzanne and I stayed
10 there for a little while, and Bob came in to see
11 her.
12 Q Was there any other reaction, or were
13 you continuing to talk to Terri after the
14 videotape was turned off?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did Terri have any other smiling or
17 laughing, or crying, any other type of reaction
18 after that? After this videotape was turned off?
19 A Not anything vocal, but when we were
20 leaving, she smiled.
21 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay. NQ.-further
22 questions.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Felos?
24 MR. FELOS: If I may, Your Honor.
25 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
468
1 FURTHER RECROSS EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. FELOS:
3 Q Mrs. Schindler, you just viewed this
4 tape?
5 A Yes.
6 Q When the tape starts, Terri is moaning?
7 A When the tape started?
8 Q Yes.
9 A I didn't hear her.
10 Q Well, well play the tape again in just
11 a moment. When we talked about this tape, when I
12 cross-examined you before, I asked you
13 specifically did Terri start moaning or crying in
14 response to your voice, and you said yes. I said,
15 I asked you, were the sounds Terri was making in
16 response to your voice. You said yes. I asked
17 you are you sure. You said yes.
18 As I see this tape, when you are -- and
19 we will see. it and maybe your recollection is
20 better than mine -- Terri is moaning when the tape
21 is on. There is a break in the tape. You are
22 seated next to her. There is no sound coming from
23 Terri. You spoke to her. Terri does not respond
24 vocally. You put your hand under her neck and
25 give her stimulation. That is when she starts to
469
1 moan.
2 I want you, as we replay the tape, to
3 look at that to see whether Terri responded to
4 your voice or she responded to your touch, if we
5 may play this again, Your Honor.
6 THE COURT: Let's just leave it where it
7 is.
8 (By Mr. Felos) Can you see that all
9 10 Yes.
11 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEOTAPE IS STARTED.)
12 MS. FELOS: We have to go back to the
13 beginning with the sound. That is the issue.
14 THE BAILIFF: Go back to the beginning?
15 MS. FELOS: Yes. That is the issue.
16 With the sound.
17 THE BAILIFF: Now it should be okay.
18 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEOTAPE IS RESTARTED.)
19 MR. FELOS: Let's stop it one second, if
20 we can.
21 Q (By Mr. Felos) Would you agree, Mrs.
22 Schindler, that as the tape starts, Terri is
23 moaning and you have not gone to her yet?
24 A Yes.
25 Q I want you to watch carefully when you
470
1 sit down and start talking to her. Is she moaning
2 now?
3 A (No response.)
4 MR. FELOS: Stop that, if we can. Turn
5 the sound down.
6 Q (By Mr. Felos) When the tape starts,
7 before you go over to Terri's bed, Terri is
8 moaning; is that correct?
9 A Yeah.
10 Q When you are by Terri's bedside, she's
11 not moaning; is she?
12 A She is making some kind of a noise.
13 Q Well, we can play it again.
14 A She is making some kind of a noise.
15 Q Ma'am, you start speaking with Terri.
16 Then you place your hand under her neck?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And when you place your hand under the
19 neck --
20 A Yes.
21 Q -- and there is bodily stimulation,
22 she -- that is when she starts moaning; isn't it?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Okay. Mrs. Schindler, although you
25 testified before we saw the tape that you were
471
1 sure that Terri responded with a moan, she
2 responded vocally to your voice, and I
3 specifically asked you that a couple of times and
4 you said I'm sure it is my voice that she
5 responded to. Doesn't this tape show that it was
6 your hand, putting your hand on the back of the
7 neck and stimulating the muscles, which caused
8 Terri to start moaning?
9 A No.
10 Q Shall I play the tape again?
11 A No. I am not sure if it was my hand,
12 my voice. I don't always touch Terri when I go up
13 there.
14 Q Let me ask it another way. When you are
15 by Terri's bedside, is she moaning?
16 A This one, yes.
17 Q When you went to her bedside and started
18 talking to her, was she moaning?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Ma'am, I'll play the tape for you one
21 more time.
22 A I don't need to see the tape again.
23 Q Ma'am, as I see this tape -- and we will
24 play it one more time -- because my perceptions
25 and faculties are subject to certainly not 100
472
1 percent reliable, then I want you to watch it very
2 carefully again.
3 A I don't need to. I know it was my hand
4 under her head.
5 Q Ma'am, you are talking to your daughter
6 by her bedside. I don't hear any sounds on this
7 tape. When you put your hand under her neck and
8 touch her neck, she starts moaning?
9 A And then my voice starts.
10 Q Your voice started. Did you start
11 talking to her at her bedside before you put your
12 hand under her neck?
13 A No.
14 Q I will play it one more time.
15 A I don't need to see the tape.
16 THE COURT: I don't want her to say she
17 was wearing a red dress. If it was on the tape
18 and in evidence -- I mean, we will play it, if you
19 want to. I don't think you are going to change
20 her answer. She does not know if it was the hand
21 or voice is the last answer I heard. I don't
22 think playing it again is going to change that.
23 Q (By Mr. Felos) Let me ask you, Mrs.
24 Schindler, if on the tape there is no moaning
25 coming from Terri as you are speaking to her and
473
1 the moaning starts -- let me backtrack.
2 As you view this tape, as you are
3 speaking to Terri by her bedside, is it correct
4 that she is not moaning and she does not start
5 moaning until you put your hand under her neck?
6 A And she heard my voice. Yes.
7 Q Ma'am, let me ask -- that is not
8 responsive to the question. Will you agree that
9 this tape shows that when you come to Terri's
10 bedside and you start talking to her, she did not
11 start moaning until you put your hand under her
12 neck?
13 A Yes. Then I talked to her.
14 MR. FELOS: I have no other questions.
15 Thank you.
16 THE COURT: Anything further?
17 MS. CAMPBELL: No, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: Thank you, Mrs. Schindler.
19 You may step down.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: Seeing it is ten to 5:00,
21 I think I would like to start tomorrow morning
22 with Mr. Schindler. He is my next witness.
23 THE COURT: All right, ma'am. Not to
24 hold you to it, but for my time management
25 prospective, I believe you said you had six
474
1 witnesses. I don't know if you were counting the
2 video man or not. That seems to me, five
3 witnesses included Mr. Schindler Sr., Jr., and the
4 daughter. That makes three.
5 MS. CAMPBELL: I forgot about Mr.
6 Pearse. Suzanne, the daughter. Bob Jr. and
7 Jackie Rhodes. Diane Meyer and Richard Pearse.
8 Five more. Are you asking for time as far as
9 tomorrow?
10 THE COURT: No. I'm just wondering if
11 we can do all those tomorrow. I don't know if we
12 can or not. We will do the best we can.
13 MS. CAMPBELL: I believe they are all
14 relatively short, except for Mr. Pearse. I am not
15 sure of how lengthy on cross for Mr. Pearse, but
16 he is probably more lengthy than the rest. The
17 others are relatively short.
18 THE COURT: We will start again at 9:00
19 in the morning, if that works for everyone. I
20 have a rotary meeting at noon. Hopefully, we can
21 do the noon hour on time and see where we go from
22 there. Okay. The courtroom will be secured.
23 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is in
24 recess until 9:00 a.m. by the judicial watch.
25 (THEREUPON, COURT RECESSED AT 4:50 P.M. ON
475
1 1-25-00 AND RECONVENED ON 1-26-00 AT 9:00 A.M.)
2 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit court
3 is back in session. Be seated, please.
4 THE COURT: Ready to proceed?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Yes, Your Honor. I am.
6 I would like to call Bob Schindler, Jr. to the
7 stand, please.
8 THE BAILIFF: Stand right here and face
9 the judge and raise your right hand, please.
10 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
11 THE COURT.)
12 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a seat in
13 the chair.
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
16 Q Good morning.
17 A Good morning.
18 Q Would you please state your full name?
19 A Robert Schindler, Jr.
20 Q Where do you live?
21 A 2906 Spanish Circle, Tampa, Florida.
22 Q How old are you?
23 A Thirty-five.
24 Q Is Terri Schindler your sister?
25 A Yes.
476
1 Q How much age difference is there between
2 the two of you?
3 A Thirteen months.
4 Q Can you please give me a brief history
5 of your educational background?
6 A I have a BS in Marketing from LaSalle
7 University in Philadelphia in '87. A BS in
8 Meteorology from Florida State in 1996.
9 Q Are you currently employed?
10 A I'm a teacher at Tampa Catholic High
11 School.
12 Q What do you teach?
13 A Math and science.
14 Q Where were you raised?
15 A Philadelphia. Just outside of.
16 Q Could you describe your family growing
17 up?
18 A Sure. It was a typical family. Very
19 close. We spent quite a lot of time together.
20 The easiest way to explain our family is very
21 typical. Very strong as far as closeness in
22 relationship to each other.
23 Q Did you attend church?
24 A Yes.
25 Q What church did you attend?
477
1 A Our Lady of Good Counsel.
2 Q Did you go regularly as a family?
3 A Yes.
4 Q When did you move to Florida?
5 A I moved in '87.
6 Q Where did you move?
7 A To St. Petersburg, Florida.
8 Q In between all that time, did you live
9 in Florida -- did you live anywhere else in
10 Florida?
11 A In between?
12 Q From '87 forward?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Where else?
15 A Tallahassee, Florida.
16 Q What were you doing in Tallahassee?
17 A Attending Florida State University.
18 Q How old were you when you moved to
19 Florida?
20 A In '87 I was 22.
21 Q Were Terri and Mike already in Florida
22 when you came?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Where did you live then when you first
25 came down?
478
1 A I lived with my parents.
2 Q In St. Petersburg?
3 A Correct.
4 Q What was your relationship with Terri
5 like then?
6 A We had started to become closer, years
7 prior to her moving to Florida, and then when I
8 moved to Florida, we continued to become stronger.
9 Q How often would you see Terri?
10 A Quite a bit. We would spend weekends
11 together regularly. Quite a bit during the week.
12 We lived, closer to the accident, we had lived in
13 the same apartment complex. In distance, we were
14 very close, too. I would spend a lot of time with
15 her.
16 Q How was your relationship with Michael?
17 A Um, can you repeat that? Like in what
18 way?
19 Q Were you and Michael close?
20 A No.
21 Q The times you would spend with Terri,
22 was Michael always there?
23 A Not always there.
24 Q Generally, the times you spent with
25 Terri, was it more with her by herself or with
479
1 them as a couple?
2 A Probably more by herself. There was
3 more just her and I. Michael -- Terri would work
4 during the day. Michael would work at night. So
5 I would -- I was working during the day as well.
6 So at night when Michael was working is many of
7 the times when we would spend time together.
8 Q What kind of things would you and Terri
9 do?
10 A A lot of times just go over and see how
11 the day went. Other times, social time together.
12 Go out together on the weekends. It became
13 regular once I moved to
14 Q What kind of social activities were you
15 doing?
16 A I remember going to the beach with her
17 on weekends. We'd spend time going to the clubs
18 on the weekends, as well as at night.
19 Q Did you and Terri ever discuss or
20 confide in each other about certain things?
21 A Well, sure.
22 Q Give me an example.
23 A As far as you mean?
24 Q Did Terri talk to you about wanting to
25 get pregnant?
480
1 A We never talked about it in depth. It
2 was mentioned. If the question is do you mean did
3 we talk about her relationships or things in
4 general?
5 Q Let me be more specific.
6 A Okay.
7 Q Did you talk to her about her
8 relationship with Michael?
9 A We didn't specifically talk about her
10 relationship with Michael or not. I don't know if
11 that was on purpose. I had an overall impression
12 of her relationship with Michael.
13 Q What was your impression based on?
14 A Her general mood while she was involved
15 with Michael in the relationship.
16 Q How would you describe her general mood?
17 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object on two
18 grounds. First, on the realm of speculation. He
19 said he did not talk to his sister about the
20 subject, but a general impression from her mood.
21 That would call for subjective speculation on the
22 part of the witness, number one. So I object on
23 those grounds. I also renew my objection as to
24 relevance.
25 THE COURT: Ms. Campbell?
481
1 MS. CAMPBELL: I think I can reword the
2 question to ask him to describe differences. As
3 far as speculation, that part, I believe it is
4 relevant as we discussed yesterday on similar type
5 argument. I think the issue is releveant [sic] as to
6 the relationship between Terri and Michael.
7 THE COURT: No question I ruled that he
8 has no earthly idea the lady was going to a
9 doctor, trying to get pregnant, heard she was
10 battling weight. So as far as a mood change, it
11 would be utter speculation as to why.
12 So while conversations about
13 relationship I will allow in, I will not let this
14 witness talk about a situation and say, gee, in my
15 opinion I think it had to do with X, Y, Z. The
16 objection is sustained.
17 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did you and Terri
18 discuss her thoughts concerning end of life
19 issues?
20 A No.
21 Q Were you close with your grandmother
22 Schindler?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Where were you when your grandmother
25 Schindler passed away?
482
1 A I was in
2 Q Do you recall the year?
3 A 1986.
4 Q So this was prior to you moving to
5 Florida?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Was Terri in Philadelphia at that time,
8 too?
9 A Yes. She was.
10 Q Was she living there?
11 A I believe so.
12 Q Did Terri ever make any comments to you
13 concerning Mrs. Schindler's death or condition
14 prior to death?
15 A None. None whatsoever.
16 Q Do you remember where you were February
17 25, 1990?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Where?
20 A I was in St. Petersburg in my apartment.
21 Q Do you recall what happened on that day?
22 A Sure.
23 Q Can you please tell the Court?
24 A I received a phone call. Not sure
25 quite. It was early in the morning. It was a
483
1 call from Michael saying Terri had passed out,
2 for me to come over. Since I live in the same
3 complex, I was there within a minute's time.
4 When I got there, Terri was laying face
5 on the ground. I thought she had just passed
6 out. I think we actually tried to shake her a
7 couple times. She was breathing heavily. At that
8 time, Michael said he called 911 and the
9 paramedics were on the way.
10 Q Did you go to the hospital with them?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Were you working at the time?
13 A Yes. I was.
14 Q Where were you working?
15 A For a snack food company.
16 Q Did you assist with Terri's care during
17 those early times?
18 A No.
19 Q Why were you not involved?
20 A Because of the closeness of my sister,
21 it was difficult for me to see her in that
22 condition.
23 Q Did you assist with fund raisers for
24 Theresa?
25 A I believe so.
484
1 Q Do you recall what you did specifically?
2 A Just general help with the family during
3 the events.
4 Q How often would you see Terri back then
5 in the earlier days?
6 A From her accident?
7 Q Um-hmm.
8 A It's hard to say. I was in and out with
9 the family at times. Less than what my parents
10 were seeing her, but quite a bit.
11 Q How often do you see Terri now?
12 A Probably on average two, three, four
13 times a year.
14 Q Does she ever react to you?
15 A Not every occasion I go in there. There
16 are times I'll go in there and I'll hear her
17 making noises. Her eyes are always open when I go
18 in. Sometimes she looks like she's cranky or
19 uncomfortable, but specifically when I walk into
20 the room, I don't see any kind of that type
21 reaction, no.
22 Q Do you go to the nursing home by
23 yourself?
24 A Yes.
25 1 Q Have you also been there with your
485
1 parents?
2 A Not in quite some time.
3 Q Do you recall ever being there with your
4 mother or father in the last year?
5 A Not within the last year. No.
6 Q Have you observed Theresa having any
7 reactions to other people?
8 A On occasion, I guess when I have gone
9 with my mom, I see more of a reaction from her.
10 Yes.
11 Q Is there any way that -- can you tell
12 whether there is any improvement in Terri from
13 earlier to the last time you saw her?
14 A It's been consistent. I don't think
15 it's gotten worse. I don't know if it's gotten
16 better, either.
17 Q Have you lost hope of Terri receiving
18 improvement?
19 A At did at one time. This has always
20 been very difficult for me. Recent happenings
21 have enabled me to have hope for her to maybe some
22 day coming out of this.
23 Q What's resently [sic] happened that restored
24 your hope?
25 A I believe on Christmas Eve, 1999, there
486
1 was a woman who was, by my reading, was very
2 similar to my sister, the state she's in. After
3 sixteen years, she has come out of her coma quite
4 miraculously.
5 Q What were you reading?
6 A I called the Albuquerque Journal, I
7 believe is where this happened, and spoke to the
8 reporter about this. She faxed me the articles
9 explaining about this woman. Also, the doctors
10 explanation of this as well. It is quite
11 fascinating actually.
12 Q What is it about that particular case
13 that has given you hope?
14 A You could put my sister's name on this
15 lady's name as far as her state. Everything that
16 was said about this lady being eye tracking. I
17 don't remember specifically what was said. I have
18 the article. But a very, very similar situation
19 to what my sister is in.
20 No medical explanation was given, and
21 this lady on Christmas Eve woke up. She vowed she
22 is going -- they bought her running shoes. She
23 vowed she was going to run again.
24 Q What are your personal thoughts on end
25 of life decisions?
487
1 A Well, as far as my sister, I don't --
2 Q Your personal thoughts.
3 A It is something that I never really
4 thought about. If it's a decision I'm going to
5 make, I'll sit down and take time in making it.
6 Q What if it happened to you? Sitting
7 down making those kind of decisions?
8 A Well, then I want to be kept alive until
9 I go naturally.
10 Q Why is that?
11 A Because I don't believe in this. I
12 don't believe in starving someone. I believe this
13 is inhumane.
14 Q Have you learned or gained experience
15 from this situation with Terri?
16 A I'd like to think so. When this whole
17 thing occurred, I guess within the first couple
18 years, I didn't understand why at first. I lost
19 my faith. I was brought up in Catholicism and a
20 strong faith in belief of God. I really
21 questioned that. In fact, it kind of pulled me
22 away from the church. I was very bitter toward
23 God.
24 Then when Michael won the malpractice
25 suit and after I saw what he did to my parents at
488
1 that time --
2 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object and
3 move to strike that. That is a subjective
4 conclusion on the part of the witness as to what
5 Michael did.
6 THE COURT: Granted. Strike the part
7 of what he did to -- what Michael did to his
8 parents.
9 Q (By Ms. Campbell) You can continue.
10 A After the malpractice suit, I became
11 very angry at Michael. I didn't understand what
12 was happening was happening. I had to deal with
13 that. Because if I did not deal with it, I don't
14 know what path it was going to take me down. So
15 that is something I needed to deal with.
16 I have. Since then, I have done a lot
17 of work on myself. In so doing, I have dealt a
18 lot with the anger that I have accumulated because
19 of what's happened in the beginning.
20 Q Does any of that have anything to do
21 with why you are working at Tampa Catholic?
22 A Sure.
23 Q How has your relationship with God
24 changed or has it changed since your employment at
25 Tampa Catholic?
489
1 MR. FELOS: I object as to the relevancy
2 of that question.
3 THE COURT: What is the relevancy,
4 please?
5 MS. CAMPBELL: At this time, it is
6 because I think it establishes that other things
7 happen when bad things happen to people and it's
8 not necessarily the quality of life of Terri and
9 Terri's personal standpoint, it's the cause and
10 effect of that, that it has on Terri and on other
11 people.
12 THE COURT: How does that assist me in
13 making a decision?
14 MS. CAMPBELL: I think it also goes to
15 show the type of upbringing. He is very close to
16 age in Terri. Same type of family unit. I think
17 it may give you insight as to Terri's thoughts.
18 How she would be thinking about this currently.
19 MR. FELOS: That is highly speculative,
20 Your Honor, to say this gentleman's experience in
21 teaching high school, how that has affected,
22 teaching in a Catholic high school, how that has
23 affected his relationship with God. I can't see
24 any relevance or connection as to what Theresa
25 Schiavo may be thinking.
490
1 THE COURT: I'm delighted he has gotten
2 closer to God, but I think it is a little far
3 afield. I will sustain the objection.
4 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Thank you. Mr.
5 Schindler, do you have anything else to tell the
6 Court to aid in Theresa's intent as to withdrawal
7 of the feeding tube?
8 A I think if Terri knew if it brought my
9 parents joy, the state she is in, I think she's
10 perfectly happy being in that state.
11 MR. FELOS: I move to strike that. That
12 is speculation as to his belief as to what Terri
13 would do if she knew a certain fact. He can
14 testify as to what she said and what she didn't
15 say. He has already testified they never had a
16 conversation about her intent. His belief as to
17 what her belief would be under certain
18 circumstances is speculation.
19 THE COURT: I think it is probative
20 speculation.
21 THE WITNESS: It's not speculation. I
22 knew my sister for 24 years. I know how she's --
23 how close she was with my parents. My parents
24 brought her up for 20 -- whatever age she was when
25 this happened. Twenty-seven at the time or
491
1 six when this occurred. My parents and her were
2 very, very close.
3 It is not speculative to say if Terri
4 knew that it was bringing my parents an ounce of
5 joy in her life she would want to be like this.
6 know for one thing that if she knew what was
7 happening because of this --
8 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object. This
9 is speculation. If she would know what is
10 happening. She does not know what is happening.
11 This Court deals in facts. We are straying far
12 from fact.
13 THE COURT: Yes. He is getting well
14 away. Well away.
15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Growing up, did Terri
16 try to please your parents?
17 A Sure.
18 Q Would she do anything specific trying to
19 please her parents?
20 A I mean, I know for one thing which
21 always stood out in my mind is that my grandmother
22 was in a nursing home. I don't think I'm wrong.
23 She would go at least a couple times a week to see
24 my grandmother. It was not on her way, either.
25 Q Which-grandmother is this?
492
1 A My mother's mother.
2 Q At Majestic Towers?
3 A Yes. She came over to my parents
4 regularly. They live quite a distance apart. She
5 spent a lot of time with my parents. Spent a lot
6 of time with me. I think, just being a daughter
7 in the normal sense of what a daughter is brought
8 joy to my parents.
9 MS. CAMPBELL: No further questions at
10 this time.
11 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross-
12 examination?
13 CROSS-EXAMINATION
14 BY MS. FELOS:
15 Q Good morning.
16 A Good morning.
17 Q Mr. Schindler, you don't attend mass
18 regularly, do you?
19 A No. Well, define regularly.
20 Q Do you go every Sunday?
21 A No.
22 Q Do you receive the sacraments?
23 A Occasionally.
24 Q When is occasionally?
25 A When I go to mass.
493
1 Q Do you remember when your deposition was
2 taken September 27, 1999 by Mr. Felos?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Page 76 of that deposition it said, do
5 you attend mass regularly now?
6 No.
7 When was the last time you attended
8 mass?
9 The beginning of this school year.
10 Then moving on to Page 8, Number 12. So
11 you attend mass in conjunction with your duties at
12 Tampa Catholic?
13 Yes.
14 Is that a fair estimation of how much?
15 That would be occasionally.
16 Q That is the involvement you have with
17 the Catholic church?
18 A Yes. That is correct.
19 Q So you don't go to mass on your own
20 then, you just go when it is necessary for your
21 work; is that correct?
22 A No. I do go regularly with school.
23 There are some times when I will attend mass. On
24 Christmas. Easter.
25 Q I will make reference again to your
494
1 deposition at the same time on Page 8 where the
2 question was, and outside of the school context,
3 would you attend mass?
4 Your answer was I don't.
5 A Um-hmm.
6 Q How do you explain that? In September
7 you said you don't, and today you say you do?
8 A Right.
9 Q Which one is right?
10 A Well, Christmas and Easter to me is
11 something that we do regardless of going every
12 Sunday. I don't go outside of the church on
13 Christmas and Easter.
14 Q But you just did not mention that on the
15 deposition?
16 A No. I did not. No.
17 Q You have no direct information with
18 respect to Terri's intent regarding artificial
19 life support; do you?
20 A No. I do not.
21 Q Is it your position that your sister
22 should be kept in the state she is because it
23 provides joy to you and your mother and your
24 father and your other sister?
25 A No. It is not.
495
1 Q Referring to the same deposition, Page
2 23, Line 7.
3 Now as I understand it -- this is the
4 question. You are saying you believe if Theresa
5 knew that her family derived joy from her
6 continued life, she would want to be kept alive
7 through artificial feeding?
8 The answer you made was correct.
9 In response to her intent, Page 23, Line
10 2
11 If she knew it was providing an ounce of
12 joy or happiness to any family members being in
13 the state right now, she would go on and continue
14 to live and want to continue to live.
15 A I guess I'm a little confused by the
16 word intent. I believe yes. What I said in my
17 deposition is if my sister knew it was bringing my
18 parents any type of joy, she would want to be kept
19 alive. I also don't condone someone removing her
20 feeding tube, either.
21 Q Repeat the last few words. I could not
22 hear.
23 A I do believe my sister would believe if
24 she was providing any joy to my parents she would
25 want to remain alive. I guess I'm a little
496
1 confused by the word intent. I would, under no
2 circumstances, ever condone removal of her feeding
3 tube.
4 Q So it is your position that your sister
5 should be kept in the state that she is because it
6 provides joy to you? You find joy in seeing her?
7 A I don't find joy seeing her in the state
8 she is in. No.
9 Q Sorry. I'm looking at a note here.
10 A That's fine.
11 Q Well, I'll locate it in a moment. I'm
12 referring to the same deposition. Page 26, Line
13 21.
14 If Theresa, in addition to being tube
15 fed was on a respirator, would it still give you
16 joy to have her alive?
17 Answer. If she was on a respirator,
18 would it give me joy?
19 Question. Would her continued life give
20 you joy?
21 Page 27, Line 6. Yes. It would give
22 me joy. Okay.
23 A You are asking me if she is on a
24 respirator. She is not.
25 Q So if she were on a respirator, it would
497
1 give you joy, but it does not give you joy to see
2 her in the state she is in now?
3 A I believe at the time I was addressing a
4 hypothetical question; correct?
5 Q You stated it would give you joy to see
6 your sister on a respirator; is that correct?
7 A If I said it, it must be correct.
8 Q You just said it would not give you joy
9 to see your sister in the state she is in. How
10 does that make sense?
11 A I don't think that is what I said. What
12 I said is my sister, if she knew it was providing
13 my family joy to exist in the state that she's in,
14 that would make her happy. Okay? I would never
15 condone removing her feeding tube. I would never
16 condone it.
17 Q Fine. We understand that is what you
18 said.
19 A Does it bring me joy seeing her like
20 that? No. It does not. I have a hope maybe now
21 that she can come out of it because of the lady in
22 New Mexico. It does not bring me --
23 Q Let's move On. On Page 26 of your
24 deposition, Line 19, you say, I believe if we have
25 the means to try to keep someone living, then we
498
1 should try.
2 A Correct.
3 Q Moving on to Page 27, you say, Line 11,
4 seeing the joy, as I told you, that it brings my
5 parents. Then you go on to talk about me
6 personally, when this whole incident occurred, I
7 had a lot of anger inside over this whole
8 situation. You go on to talk about your
9 self-reflection.
10 A Um-hmm.
11 Q So Theresa's situation has been very
12 helpful to you; has it not?
13 A Sure.
14 Q That is probably what you mean when you
15 say it brings you joy?
16 A No. It's not. That is not what I mean
17 at all.
18 Q If your sister developed diabetes and
19 resulting gangerine [sic] and she needed to have a limb
20 amputated to keep her alive, would you be in favor
21 of that procedure?
22 A As a hypothetical situation. My sister
23 isn't in that situation.
24 Q Sir, I asked you a question.
25 THE COURT: Answer the question,
499
1 MS. FELOS: Please answer the question.
2 THE COURT: You need to answer the
3 question. If you need to explain your answer, you
4 will have a chance.
5 A If that situation --
6 Q (By Ms. Felos) If your sister developed
7 gangrene, if she had to have a limb amputated in
8 the state she is in now, would you be in favor of
9 that procedure to keep her alive?
10 A I have to answer this in a yes or no
11 answer?
12 THE COURT: Yes. Then explain your
13 answer.
14 A Yes.
15 Q (By Ms. Felos) So you are testifying
16 then it gives you joy to have her remain alive
17 even in that state?
18 A No. I'm not. Can I explain now, judge?
19 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
20 A If my sister developed gangrene or
21 whatever you said, first of all, it's an
22 insensitive question. I am surprised you are
23 asking me that again.
24 MR. FELOS: I move to strike the speech
25 of the witness.
500
1 THE WITNESS: It's insensitive, judge.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Schindler, that does not
3 explain your answer. You may explain your answer.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I apologize.
5 THE COURT: That's all right.
6 A If that happened to my sister, I'd
7 address it at the time. Right now, she is
8 healthy. She has moments of laughter. She
9 cries. She can see. I have renewed hope that the
10 state she is in, she might end up like the woman
11 in New Mexico. If you believe in God and giving
12 us signs, okay, if you believe in that, then what
13 happened in New Mexico, as far as I'm concerned,
14 is a sign for all of us.
15 Q Thank you.
16 A You are welcome.
17 Q Reading from your deposition again, Page
18 28, Line 17. And you are testifying with respect
19 to the diabetes, gangrene, limb amputation.
20 Question. And you are testifying it
21 still gives you joy to have her remain alive in
22 that situation?
23 Your answer on Line 20 is absolutely.
24 Sure.
25 A Right. Absolutely. Hopefully, if she
501
1 was in that situation, she would pass away soon.
2 Q Thank you. You have answered the
3 question.
4 A Can I finished, judge? She keeps
5 interrupting.
6 THE COURT: Sir, I'm having a problem.
7 Let me ask a question, if I might. In response to
8 a lot of her questions, you are saying it gives me
9 no joy for her to be in that condition. Now you
10 are saying it gives you joy to have her alive.
11 I'm not sure what your answer really is.
12 THE WITNESS: Judge, they are asking me
13 hypothetical questions and it's very disturbing to
14 me. They are asking if my sister, if her limbs
15 were removed. They are asking if, to keep her
16 alive under the circumstances. I would hope if
17 she's in that state, she passes away soon. I will
18 not condone the feeding tube pulling.
19 THE COURT: I guess your hangup [sic] is you
20 are used to the word "joy" with the state of
21 mind. The word joy has appeared in the
22 deposition, but you had to back away from it in
23 your testimony. I'm not sure how those two fit
24 together. That is my point.
25 I guess I'll leave it up to questions
502
1 and answers to see if we can sort that out at this
2 point.
3 MS. FELOS: Your Honor, I'm having a
4 very difficult time hearing you.
5 THE COURT: The acoustics in this room
6 are not good. I said that I think I understand
7 what this witness is trying to say. That is not
8 to suggest you should curtail your questioning.
9 MS. FELOS: Thank you, judge.
10 Q (By Ms. Felos) I believe when I asked
11 you before would it bring joy to you -- or let me
12 ask you this. Does it bring joy to your parents
13 to see Terri alive now in the condition she is in?
14 A I think you would have to ask my
15 parents.
16 Q So you don't know?
17 A I know they have hope.
18 Q I was asking about joy. Joy was the
19 word you used.
20 A Sure. I believe if Terri --
21 Q No. No. The question is first --
22 A Right.
23 Q Do you know whether Terri being alive
24 today in her condition brings joy to your parents?
25 A You would have to ask my parents.
503
1 Q You don't know; is that correct?
2 A I would think -- this whole joy thing,
3 I don't know if my parents like seeing their
4 daughter in the state she's in. But they
5 certainly get enjoyment out of walking into the
6 room and seeing their daughter. Yes.
7 Q Let me read from your deposition again
8 with respect to this.
9 A Sure. Okay.
10 Q Page 39, Line 17. This is your answer.
11 If you saw the joy it brings to my parent's face,
12 the joy that it might bring to people working in
13 the nursing home, seeing my sister on a daily
14 basis, you just don't know, Mr. Felos.
15 This was in the deposition.
16 A Right.
17 Q And you would concur that is your
18 feelings with respect to how you feel about
19 Theresa, your sister, staying alive in the
20 condition she is in; is that correct?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Let's talk about your viewpoints
23 regarding your own end of life care. If you were
24 in a permanent vegetative condition, you have no
25 awareness and no chance of regaining awareness,
504
1 and you developed gangrene -- we are going to
2 extremes -- which would or could necessitate the
3 amputation of your leg in order to remain alive,
4 is that something you would want for yourself?
5 A Yes or no response, judge? Yes. Can I
6 explain?
7 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
8 A Okay.
9 MS. FELOS: Could I refer to the
10 deposition first? There's a little different
11 answer, then he can explain the difference.
12 THE COURT: He didn't answer.
13 MS. FELOS: He answered sure. Oh, yeah.
14 THE COURT: Ms. Felos, I guess yeah is
15 different than yes, if were looking in the
16 dictionary, but it's no different in this
17 courtroom. He answered yes. And he said sure.
18 Yeah. Those are three different words, but they
19 mean the same thing.
20 MS. FELOS: Yes, they do mean the same
21 thing, and there are intentions behind them with
22 respect to how it was said that maybe he would
23 want to explain. If I say sure --
24 THE COURT: I don't find that
25 deposition answer to be inconsistent with the
505
1 answer he gave on the witness stand. Now you can
2 explain your answer.
3 THE WITNESS: That's fine. I'll leave
4 it at that.
5 Q (By Ms. Felos) You made a statement
6 that you found it difficult to see Terri. Why was
7 that?
8 A I remember what she was like before she
9 fell into her coma.
10 Q And you never have participated in her
11 direct care; have you?
12 A No. I have not.
13 Q You mentioned something about the
14 reactions that might be had when your mother is in
15 the room. What specific observations have you
16 made? Rather than an interpretation now, I'm
17 asking if you can give me specific observations.
18 A The time where it occurred where I was
19 in there, she seemed to track my mom from one side
20 of the room. In fact, we were doing it.
21 Q Let me ask you this. When you say
22 "track", does that mean her eyes moved to follow
23 your mother?
24 A Right.
25 Q As an object?
506
1 A My mom would be on one side of the bed
2 and they were showing me. They thought this meant
3 something. My mom would talk to her on one side
4 of the bed. She'd come to the other bedside and
5 talk to her. Terri slowly would move her head.
6 There was times she would smile. I have seen her
7 react to pain and also seen her cry.
8 Q Would it surprised you if a neurologist
9 said they have done testing to try to get her eyes
10 to follow and they do not, under any
11 circumstances, that any action of her eyes are
12 reflexive, would that surprise you at all?
13 A No. Not at all. But I can tell you
14 what has surprised me. I'm sorry I keep
15 elaborating on this. That lady in New Mexico
16 surprised the heck out of me. Absolutely blew me
17 away.
18 Q I suppose you have seen her CAT scans
19 and EEGs?
20 A No.
21 Q And all the blood tests?
22 A The lady in New Mexico?
23 Q Yes.
24 A No.
25 Q So you have not made a clinical medical
507
1 explanation?
2 A From what I understand, there is no
3 medical explanation as to why this happened. None
4 whatsoever.
5 Q Would it surprise you that a neurologist
6 might testify to a person being in a coma for a
7 long period of time might be in a catatonic state?
8 A No.
9 Q That is an explanation. The point is,
10 you don't have an explanation; isn't that correct?
11 A No. I did see a show.
12 Q You don't have an explanation; is that
13 correct?
14 A No. Can I speak?
15 Q Could you answer whether you have an
16 explanation?
17 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait a
18 minute. You are talking at the same time. The
19 court report there is going crazy. Let him finish
20 his answer. I will not let you tell us what you
21 saw on TV. That is hearsay. But if you wouldn't
22 step on each other lines.
23 THE WITNESS: I apologize.
24 THE COURT: That's quite all right.
25 A I have learned that we are just
508
1 scratching the surface on coma victims. They
2 don't know more than they do. Am I saying it
3 right?
4 MR. FELOS: I object. This witness has
5 not been qualified as an expert as to what the
6 scientific knowledge is.
7 THE COURT: Mr. Felos, your partner is
8 handling this.
9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
10 MS. FELOS: I'm having a hard time
11 hearing what is going on here.
12 THE COURT: We have to put up with this
13 in this courtroom.
14 MS. FELOS: Judge, the witness is not
15 qualified to go into speculation with respect to
16 the medical condition with patients somewhere in
17 the news. I would ask the Court to strike this
18 testimony and avoid further reference to it.
19 THE COURT: Well, this evidence has come
20 in both on direct and cross. It's a little late
21 to close the door. The horse is galloping through
22 the fields as we speak. In terms of clinically
23 analyzing, I do not think the witness is capable
24 of doing that with this New Mexico situation, but
25 he has been asked his feelings by you and Ms.
509
1 Campbell. If that is part of his feelings, he can
2 speak to that.
3 MS. FELOS: Thank you, judge. I
4 believe, sir, those have been asked and answered.
5 So I don't think I have further questions with
6 respect to that matter.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 Q (By Ms. Felos) Mr. Schindler, you are
9 angry at Mike Schiavo, aren't you?
10 A No. Can I restate that? I have dealt
11 with a lot of anger. I don't like what is
12 occurring here. I question his integrity.
13 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I object and
14 move to strike.
15 THE COURT: Mr. Felos, one lawyer
16 handles the witness now. That is the way it is
17 done.
18 MS. FELOS: Your Honor, I am just asking
19 a question as to whether he is angry. I have not
20 asked him to expound, nor have I impeached his
21 testimony in any way.
22 THE COURT: I'll allow the answer to
23 stand. It is not truly responsive, but it does
24 explain. Again, I'm not sure how all this helps
25 me make my decision..__
510
1 MS. FELOS: Yes, judge. All right. I
2 don't have any other questions right now.
3 THE COURT: Thank you. Redirect?
4 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
5 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
6 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
7 Q Do you have a specific recollection of
8 your deposition taken in September of 1999 by
9 Mr. Felos?
10 A Yes.
11 Q At that deposition, can you give a
12 percentage of the amount of time how much was
13 spent on hypothetical questions to you?
14 MS. FELOS: Objection, Your Honor. This
15 is totally irrelevant. I have no idea. It makes
16 no difference to anything whether or not a
17 question was hypothetical or actual.
18 THE COURT: What is the relevance of
19 that?
20 MS. CAMPBELL: Mrs. Felos has tried to
21 cross-examine and impeach Mr. Schindler on
22 portions of answers he gave during his
23 deposition. If they were portions of answers
24 rather than reading the whole deposition, I was
25 trying to cut short getting him to testify how
512
1 to agree with it.
2 Then continuing on Page 41. Question.
3 Let me understand this. Are you saying that if
4 you believe an answer to a question would help in
5 the removal of your sister's feeding tube you
6 would give me an untruthful answer?
7 Answer. No. That is not what I am
8 saying. Your purpose here is to have my sister's
9 feeding tube removed. I will not agree to that.
10 I don't believe in that. It's against my
11 beliefs. You get me all these hypothetical
12 questions to get me to agree. It's a hypothetical
13 question. I didn't feel I should answer it.
14 Did you make that statement on that day?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Mrs. Felos asked you whether it would
17 surprise you to hear the testimony from some of
18 the physicians regarding Theresa's CAT scans, et
19 cetera. Your answer was you said it would not
20 surprise you. Could you please explain why would
21 that not surprise you?
22 A Well, I'm not a doctor, so what they
23 would say --
24 MS. FELOS: Objection, Your Honor. He
25 just said he is not a doctor. This is a clinical
513
1 evaluation of what the doctors would say. That is
2 hearsay.
3 THE COURT: Ms. Felos, you asked the
4 question. You got an answer. She is following up
5 on your question and his answer. No, he is not a
6 doctor, but this is perfectly permissible
7 redirect.
8 MS. FELOS: If I might, he could then
9 express his opinion. He is trying to say what
10 doctors in some other part of the country are
11 saying.
12 THE COURT: The question you asked was
13 would it surprise you as to what the neurologist
14 said. He said no. She is saying why would it not
15 surprise you. Please proceed.
16 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Please explain why
17 that would not surprise you.
18 A The doctor is trained in that area.
19 Q Is the doctor's explanation from your
20 experience --
21 A Um -
22 Q -- from what you witnessed personally
23 with Theresa?
24 A Well, I'm not exactly sure what they are
25 saying. But I see there is life in my sister, if
514
1 that is what you are asking me. You can see it.
2 You know, I hate to keep referring to it, but we
3 can't ignore what happened to that lady in New
4 Mexico. What if --
5 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you very much. No
6 further questions.
7 THE COURT: Anything further, Ms. Felos?
8 MS. FELOS: No, Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Pardon me?
10 MS. FELOS: No, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: You may stand down, sir.
12 MS. CAMPBELL: Is it permissible for Mr.
13 Schindler to remain in the courtroom for the rest
14 of the trial?
15 THE COURT: Does either side anticipate
16 calling Mr. Schindler in rebuttal?
17 MR. FELOS: I don't. If respondents do,
18 we would like him excluded.
19 THE COURT: If he stays in, he is
20 excluded as to sur-rebuttal. With that
21 understanding, he will no longer, he will not
22 further be called to testify, you may stay in the
23 courtroom, sir.
24 The rule is still invoked, though, that
25 you would not be permitted to talk to other
515
1 witnesses about their testimony or other
2 testimony. You can talk to any of the three
3 lawyers, you can talk to court personnel, but not
4 about this case.
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516
1 CIRCUIT COURT OF THE SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
STATE OF FLORIDA IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY
PROBATE DIV:
2 CASE NO. 90-2:
IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF
THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
5 Incapacitated.
6
7 MICHAEL SCHIAVO, AS GUARDIAN OF THE
PERSON OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO,
8 Petitioner,
9 APPEAL
vs.
10 ROBERT SCHINDLER AND MARY SCHINDLER,
11 Respondents.
12
13 BEFORE: GEORGE W. GREER
Circuit Court Judge
14 PLACE: Clearwater Courthouse
15 Clearwater, FL 33756
16 DATE: January 26, 2000
17 TIME: 10:00 a.m.
18 REPORTED BY: Beth Ann Erickson, RPR
19 Court Reporter
Notary Public
20
21 TRIAL
22 ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
23 501 South Fort Harrison
Clearwater, Florida 33756
24 (813) 464-4858
Volume IV Pages 516 - 679
25
517
1 APPEARANCES:
2
GEORGE J. FELOS, ESQUIRE
3 CONSTANCE FELOS, ESQUIRE
640 Douglas Avenue
4 Dunedin, FL 34698
5 Attorneys for Petitioner
PAMELA CAMPBELL, ESQUIRE
The Alexander Building
7 535 Central Avenue
Suite 403
8 St. Petersburg, FL 33701
9 Attorney for Respondents
10 INDEX
Page
11 WITNESS
12 SUZANNE CARR
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 518
13 Cross-Examination by Ms. Felos 529
14 ROBERT SCHINDLER
Direct Examination by Ms. Campbell 549
15 Cross-Examination by Mr. Felos 599
Redirect Examination by Ms. Campbell 661
16 Recross-Examination by Mr. Felos 665
Further Redirect Examination 670
17 Further Recross-Examination 672
18 MARY SCHINDLER
Further Redirect Examination 675
19 Further Recross-Examination 677
20
22
23
24
25
518
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 MS. FELOS: Thank you. My next witness
3 I would like to call is Suzanne Carr.
4 THE BAILIFF: Stand here. Face the
5 judge. Raise your right hand to receive the
6 oath.
7 THE BAILIFF: Be seated in the witness
8 box, please.
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MS. CAMPBELL:
11 Q We have established the acoustics in the
12 room are difficult, so if you can speak up,
13 please. State your name.
14 A Suzanne Carr.
15 Q Where do you live?
16 A St. Petersburg, Florida.
17 Q Are you the sister to Theresa Schiavo?
18 A Yes.
19 Q How old are you?
20 A Thirty-one.
21 Q How many years difference between you
22 and Terri?
23 A I'd say about four-and-a-half years.
24 Q Would you please review your educational
25 1 background briefly?
519
1 A I have a high school diploma. A four
2 year BS in business. Recently passed Series 7 for
3 stockbroker.
4 Q Where did you go to high school?
5 A Arch Bishop Wood. Warminster, PA.
6 Q Outside of Philadelphia?
7 A Yes.
8 Q What is your current employment?
9 A TD Waterhouse Investors Services.
10 Q Where were you raised?
11 A Outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
12 Q Can you describe what it was like
13 growing up in the Schindler household?
14 A Very normal. Close knit family. Happy
15 childhood. Friendly, nice neighborhood. We lived
16 in a nice house in a nice neighborhood. Catholic
17 school.
18 Q Were you close with any of your
19 grandparents?
20 A Yes.
21 Q Did your grandmother Schindler live
22 nearby?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Do you know where you were when your
25 grandmother passed away?
520
1 A I was actually out front of my house. I
2 remember hearing the news standing out front.
3 Q In Philadelphia?
4 A Right.
5 Q Do you recall the year?
6 A ' 86.
7 Q Was Theresa also in Philadelphia during
8 that time?
9 A She had moved to Florida in '86. I
10 believe she was still there at the time.
11 Q Is it your testimony that she moved to
12 Florida after your grandmother died?
13 A No. I think -- yes. I'm sorry.
14 Q When did you move to Florida?
15 A Summer of '86.
16 Q Had Theresa and Terri and Michael
17 already moved to Florida?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Do you know anything about a train ride
20 that Terri may have taken to Florida?
21 A Not -- not really. No. Not that I can
22 1 testify to.
23 Q Describe your relationship with Terri in
24 the late 80s prior to the accident.
25 A I spoke to her periodically. I was away
521
1 at school at the time. We spoke often. I came
2 home on the weekends. I was in Orlando at the
3 time.
4 Q How often would you see Terri?
5 A I would say a couple weekends a month
6 during -- while I was at school.
7 Q Would you confide in each other?
8 A Sure. We talked on the phone.
9 Q Would you consider your relationship
10 close?
11 A Sure.
12 Q Did she ever talk to you about wanting
13 to get pregnant?
14 A We talked about her wanting to have
15 children. I can vaguely recall. Yes.
16 Q Did she talk to you about going to a
17 physician regarding that?
18 A I vaguely recall her seeing a doctor
19 regarding her -- about that.
20 Q Do you know when in proximity was that
21 prior to the -- in relationship to the accident?
22 A It was in the past, I would say prior,
23 maybe a year. During the year or two prior to
24 that.
25 Q Would you spend time with Terri and
522
1 Mike? I'm referring to the time frame of 1989.
2 A Here and there, if I came home from
3 school or prior to leaving for school. Because I
4 was not there the whole year so --
5 Q Did you ever observe them as a couple?
6 A Sure.
7 Q Did they appear to be happy together as
8 a couple?
9 MS. FELOS: Objection. That is a
10 leading question and irrelevant here.
11 THE COURT: Overruled.
12 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Go ahead and answer.
13 A I --
14 Q Could you describe how they were as a
15 couple?
16 A Well, knowing what I know, I know that
17 Terri was not 100 percent happy. So I probably
18 would say no.
19 Q What is it that you know that you are
20 referring to?
21 A I knew that Terri was not happy in the
22 marriage. Not very happy with her marriage.
23 Q What makes you say that?
24 A Different things that I knew. Just
25 comments she would make. Some of the ways she was
523
1 being treated.
2 Q Could you give me a specific example?
3 A Um, I knew that there were times that,
4 you know, she could only drive her -- they had a
5 new car and he would note the miles. She could
6 only drive certain miles. He was very strict
7 where she could park it. Things like she always
8 would make comments I can only drive so many miles
9 a day. They had a new Toyota.
10 He would give her a hard time about
11 maybe spending too much money. Just off-the-cuff
12 comments she would make, if he was working. He
13 worked long hours. There were times she was real
14 glad about that, you know. I just knew she was
15 not happy.
16 Q Did you ever visit your mother (sic) at
17 Majestic Towers? Your grandmother?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Did you ever go with Terri?
20 A Yes.
21 Q When would that generally be? During
22 the week? On weekends?
23 A Both.
24 Q Did you go by yourself as well?
25 A Yes.
524
1 Q Could you give a general description of
2 the residence at Majestic Towers?
3 A The people themselves?
4 Q Um-hmm.
5 A There were some -- it was primarily
6 older. There was some older people in there that
7 were -- it's assisted living. Some were in bed.
8 You know, elderly in pretty poor shape.
9 Q What do you mean pretty poor shape?
10 A Bedridden. That kind of thing.
11 Q Did you used to assist your mom when she
12 was the assistant activities director?
13 A You mean work with her?
14 Q Yes.
15 A No. Not really.
16 Q Do you remember what happened on
17 February 25, 1990?
18 A I remember I got a phone call. Sure.
19 Q Tell us about what happened.
20 A I got a phone call from my mom. I was
21 in Orlando at school. Mom said Terri was in the
22 hospital. It was not until I hopped in my car --
23 it was at night; I drove home -- because she did
24 not want to alarm me because I had a 2-hour ride
25 home. When I got home, I realized Terri had
525
1 fallen into cardiac arrest and was really in bad
2 shape in ICU.
3 Q Were you able to spend time with Terri
4 and the family during that initial time?
5 A We were almost sleeping at the hospital
6 during those first several weeks.
7 Q Was Michael also there?
8 A Oh, yes.
9 Q Did you continue with school that
10 semester?
11 A I went back on the weekends. I mean, I
12 would go back periodically during the week. I
13 pretty much let that semester go and then I moved
14 home.
15 Q Did you assist in taking any care of
16 Terri?
17 A Um, not day-to-day care. But I was
18 there with my parents and Michael, too.
19 Q Did you assist with any fund raisers for
20 Terri?
21 A Yes.
22 Q Describe what you did.
23 A We had, through a lot my mother's
24 friends that we knew for some years, we had a
25 Valentine's Day dance. We had prepared the hall.
526
1 We also -- I remember the luminaries on
2 Pass-A-Grille Beach. We raised money and set
3 luminaries all along. It was real pretty. With
4 the help of -- we knew the owners of the Hurricane
5 Restaurant. All were really supportive and we
6 raised quite a bit of money.
7 Q How often do you see Terri now?
8 A I'd say three or four times a month.
9 Q Does she react to you?
10 A Slightly to me. More to my mom. There
11 is a connection with my mom that I see.
12 Q Do you go there by yourself?
13 A With my daughter. I will take my
14 daughter with me.
15 Q Do you also go with your mother?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Describe what you see when your mother
18 visits Terri.
19 A Um, if we go in and Terri is just laying
20 there awake, then we will walk in. It is sort
21 of -- my mom will say, "Hi Terri. It's mommy."
22 There is a visible, to me there is a visible
23 reaction in her face. She'll just sort of like
24 sometimes almost like light up a little bit. Just
25 a -- or a smile. On occasion, I have seen her cry
527
1 when she sees my mom, too. Her face. Cry.
2 Just -- my mom, one time I was there and
3 my mom walked on the other side of the bed and
4 Terri turned her head to the other side. I see a
5 definite connection.
6 Q Do you see any change in Terri from the
7 earlier days of her accident versus now?
8 A I do.
9 Q Can you describe that change?
10 A Just, it seems as though she connects
11 more often with my mother. Also, aware that my
12 mom, even that we are there. There is a definite
13 awareness. You can see it in her eyes.
14 Q Did you ever discuss any end of life
15 issues with Terri?
16 A No. Not that I can recall.
17 Q Did you ever discuss anything concerning
18 a vegetative state or feeding tubes?
19 A Not that I can recall. Before this
20 happened, she was in her early twenties. I was in
21 my teens. We never really talked about it.
22 Q Do you have knowledge about Terri's
23 intent or what she would want to do as to being
24 maintained regarding a feeding tube?
25 A You mean as far as if Terri ever
528
1 mentioned that to me?
2 Q Right.
3 A She never said to me that either way.
4 Q What are your personal thoughts for
5 yourself regarding end of life decisions?
6 A Well, I'd honestly have to, depending on
7 what the situation was at the time, I mean, there
8 is so many different conditions that you can be in
9 and medical technology continuing to further, I
10 don't know. I know what I don't believe in as far
11 as certain things, but I'd have to wait and see
12 with the life and death decision.
13 Q With your upbringing, do you have any
14 religious views you strongly believe in one way
15 yourself personally?
16 A Pro life. Pro life in those positions.
17 You know, I feel with, again, with medical
18 technology, I believe they are advancing so much
19 to find ways for curing. Helping people get
20 through certain illnesses. I suspect if I had a
21 chance, I would rely on that medical technology.
22 Q What do you mean when you say pro life?
23 A I'm against abortion. Pro life for life
24 itself, I support.
25 MS. CAMPBELL: I have no further
529
1 questions at this point.
2 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross-
3 examination?
4 CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MS. FELOS:
6 Q Good morning. You mentioned you had a
7 close relationship with your sister, Terri; is
8 that correct?
9 A I believe so.
10 Q And you knew she was trying to have a
11 child, did you?
12 A I recall --
13 Q But Terri did not confide in you
14 regarding the fact that she was going to a doctor;
15 did she?
16 A I recall her mentioning -- with regard
17 to her --
18 Q Going to a doctor with respect to
19 getting pregnant?
20 A I recall her mentioning something about
21 looking into maybe a fertility problem with her
22 husband. That is what I recall. Maybe going to a
23 physician for that reason.
24 Q Okay. So she did not actually say to
25 you, confide in you about going to a doctor?
530
1 A I recall -- I can't think of a
2 particular conversation. Very well she could
3 have. it has been quite a while. I do recall
4 something said about that.
5 Q But it would have been in passing or
6 fairly vague; is that correct?
7 A Sure. Because it's been many years.
8 Q Is that your recollection or that she
9 only mentioned it in passing?
10 A I vaguely recall there was something
11 said about going to a physician. I'm not sure if
12 in regard to the infertility or something to that
13 effect.
14 Q That seems like a pretty important
15 thing that a young woman would talk about to a
16 close friend, wouldn't you think? Whether she was
17 going to a physician to try to get pregnant?
18 A I don't know. Depends on the friend.
19 It depends on, you know, I don't know.
20 Q Okay. You mentioned something about the
21 relationship with Michael Schiavo. That there
22 were maybe some comments made off the cuff or some
23 way she was treated, but you don't have any direct
24 information regarding a relationship with Mike
25 Schiavo that- you just mentioned that Terri had; do
531
1 you? You have no direct information from Terri
2 regarding any problems with her relationship with
3 Mike; do you?
4 A Well, yeah. I know she was not happy.
5 She would make comments to me a lot about being
6 unhappy. You know, off-the-cuff comments about
7 she was not very -- there was comments that were
8 not very favorable to Michael toward the later
9 years.
10 Q Did she say she was abused?
11 A Physically abused? She never told me --
12 she never told me she was physically abused.
13 There were times where he rough-housed with her.
14 There would be a bruise on her arm. I recall that
15 but --
16 Q So Terri never told you that she was
17 abused in any way; is that correct?
18 A She would never tell me that. She knows
19 I would go -- she would never say something like
20 that to me.
21 Q So Terri never told you that Michael
22 abused her; is that correct?
23 A Even if he did, she would not tell me
24 that.
25 Q Would you dispute Michael Schiavo's
532
1 statement that you never stayed in the hospital
2 during those early days with Terri?
3 A In the first several weeks?
4 Q Right.
5 A Would I dispute that?
6 Q Right.
7 A I can remember sleeping there.
8 Q Explain --
9 A I came home from school and did not go
10 back to college for like two weeks.
11 Q When were you married?
12 A 1991.
13 Q You were divorced?
14 A Yes.
15 Q In what time?
16 A ' 95.
17 Q When did you separate?
18 A I was divorced in '96. Separated in
19 ' 95.
20 Q Do you recall when?
21 A March.
22 Q March of?
23 A ' 95.
24 Q Were you divorced in 1995 actually?
25 MS. CAMPBELL: Objection, Your Honor. I
533
1 don't see the relevancy of this line of
2 questioning.
3 THE COURT: I'm not sure either. What
4 is the relevance of her marital status?
5 MS. FELOS: Judge, if you would let me
6 continue.
7 THE COURT: Where are we going with
8 this?
9 MS. FELOS: Where we are going? If I
10 can ask her a couple more questions about -- well,
11 judge, I'll mention it. Based on the deposition
12 that we have previously of this witness, there is
13 some discussion that Terri wanted to have a child
14 because she wanted to help their relationship,
15 which is the statement that the witness made. It
16 appears from the witness's background --
17 THE COURT: Does it make any difference
18 if she was divorced in '95 or '96?
19 MS. FELOS: We believe that the witness
20 was having a child in order to keep her
21 relationship together and she was projecting that
22 viewpoint on Terri, and in fact that was not the
23 case. So that is basically what I was trying to
24 elicit.
25 THE COURT: But the latest she could
534
1 have talked to her sister was February 24, 1990.
2 What does '95 and '96 have to do with that? Ask
3 the questions that are probative. If you need to
4 tie it up, go ahead. But there is certainly no
5 relevancy at this time as to when this lady was
6 divorced.
7 MS. FELOS: All right. Thank you,
8 Your Honor.
9 Q (By Ms. Felos) Ms. Carr, you have said
10 you communicate in some way with your sister;
11 haven't you?
12 A Um-hmm.
13 Q You have even made the statement that
14 she, Terri, squeezes your hand; isn't that
15 correct?
16 A She did on occasion. Once or twice I
17 felt something from her. Yes.
18 Q You know that Terri's hands are in a
19 rigid, contractured state; don't you?
20 A Sometimes they are not so rigid. At
21 times yes and at times no. If my mom is in there
22 talking, stroking her, she relaxes and you can
23 slip your hand in her hand.
24 Q When her hands are contractured, would
25 you agree it would be impossible to hold hands
535
1 with your sister?
2 A I don't think -- I can put my hand and
3 hold her hand if her hand is contracted. And I
4 do.
5 Q You want your sister to be acting
6 volitionally, on purpose, don't you? You would
7 like that to be the case; wouldn't you?
8 A I would like her to get up from the
9 bed. Sure. Sit up and talk to me, Mrs. Felos.
10 Q You really don't know whether or not she
11 does act on purpose or with volition; do you?
12 A I absolutely believe she does. I can
13 say that.
14 Q You do believe you would like her to; is
15 that correct?
16 A Well, as I said, sure. Absolutely. I'd
17 like to think she would get right up off that bed.
18 Q You would like to believe that the
19 actions that you see, the reactions or reflexes
20 you see are being done by her on purpose; wouldn't
21 you?
22 A Mrs. Felos, I know what you are getting
23 at. Just because I want to think they are on
24 purpose does not automatically -- is not like I'm
25 saying it's on purpose because I want it to be.
536
1 Sometimes I'm in there and, you know, if I talk to
2 her and she squeezes my hand or I feel her come
3 back to my hand, it's not because I wished it to
4 happen or I wanted it to happen. It is because
5 she did.
6 Q All right. Let me read from your
7 deposition.
8 A Okay.
9 Q The deposition was taken September 27,
10 1999. Page 11. Line 19. Do you hold hands with
11 Terri when you are there?
12 Yes. Sure.
13 Does she squeeze your hand sometimes?
14 Sometimes.
15 Have you noticed any volition or purpose
16 to that?
17 It's hard for me so say either
18 way. Right.
19 Is it fair to say you don't know?
20 It is fair to say I'd like to believe it
21 was on purpose, but I don't know. I would like to
22 believe that. I may say yes, it was on purpose,
23 as what I felt it to be.
24 Q So is that correct? Is that really your
25 statement?
537
1 A Sure. Again, if I put my hand in there,
2 I feel her come back with me, sure.
3 Q Thank you. Do you believe that taking
4 away artificial life support is murder?
5 A I believe starving someone to death is
6 inhumane.
7 Q So you are saying that you don't believe
8 that taking away other forms of artificial life
9 support would be murder, but taking away a feeding
10 tube would be murder? Is that your testimony?
11 A I think it depends on the situation.
12 Q Could you just answer that question?
13 A Well, I can't. I don't know. It's per
14 situation.
15 Q I'm asking you just generally your
16 preference. Do you believe that taking away
17 artificial life support is murder?
18 A Well, if I refer to my grandmother who
19 was taken away from a respirator and she died,
20 then no, not in that respect. She was -- no.
21 Q So you don't believe that taking away
22 artificial life support is murder. Thank you.
23 A I can't generalize. I can't say in
24 every single case. I have to know a little bit
25 more about what the situation is.
538
1 Q May I refer to your deposition again?
2 Same deposition. Page 26, Line 21. Taking life
3 support away is murder. Period.
4 A I was referring to the feeding, taking
5 my sister's feeding tube away.
6 Q Let me read the question.
7 A Okay.
8 Q Line 15. Well, so if a person would
9 die, that hypothetical person would die without
10 life support but would not die with life support,
11 who is to say what's God's will? Is it a human
12 decision that's going to be made to put life
13 support in this case? Why isn't it just as much
14 God's will that the patient die without life
15 support?
16 Your answer, first line is, taking life
17 support away is murder. Then you went on to
18 discuss human decisions, et cetera.
19 A Right.
20 Q But yet today you said, no, taking away
21 artificial life support is not murder?
22 A I did not say that. I did not say, no,
23 it is not.
24 Q Well, we'll have a transcript of what
25 you said.
539
1 A I believe --
2 Q Would you be against re…[missing text]
3 respirator of somebody who is br…[missing text]
4 MS. CAMPBELL: Objecti…[missing text]
5 This line of hypothetical questi…[missing text]
6 relevant to the decision the Court is to make
7 regarding the specific accident of Terri's
8 regarding this feeding tube.
9 THE COURT: I am sure her opinions from
10 lots of witnesses, what they believe regarding the
11 decision on both sides, so I'll allow some of this
12 testimony.
13 Q (By Ms. Felos) Could you answer the
14 question?
15 A Can you repeat the question?
16 Q I gather that you would be against
17 removing a respirator of someone who is brain
18 dead?
19 A I am for pro life. If there is a way
20 Q Excuse me. We were talking about a
21 respirator of someone who is brain dead. Would
22 you be --
23 THE COURT: She started to answer you,
24 counselor.
25 MS. FELOS: I thought she was answering
540
1 about someone different.
2 THE COURT: She used pro life in her
3 answer, which is a more global view than just
4 abortion.
5 MS. FELOS: I see.
6 A I think if the person were brain dead,
7 if there was no, if they are completely brain dead
8 and the only thing keeping them alive was just a
9 breathing machine I would -- it's hard for me to
10 say. In some respects I'm -- I don't know. I
11 think I would keep them on a breathing machine for
12 the time being. See where it goes from there.
13 Q (By Ms. Felos) So you advocate the use
14 of all medical treatment; is that correct?
15 A I do.
16 Q That is no matter what the treatment is?
17 A What are you referring to as far as what
18 the treatment is?
19 Q Any treatment that would be medically
20 available?
21 A I advocate medical treatment. Sure.
22 Q So is it fair to say if it's available,
23 you would advocate it?
24 A I agree. That is fair to say.
25 Q What if the patient does not want the
541
1 treatment? Do you think they should have it
2 anyway, even if they don't want it if it will keep
3 them alive-
4 A Is this -- is the patient -- I think I
5 need to know more information. Is the patient 90
6 years old? Is the patient 16? What is wrong with
7 the patient?
8 Q So then the age of the patient would be
9 relevant to your decision and the diagnosis would
10 be relevant to your decision?
11 A Well, I am all for medical treatment for
12 keeping someone alive. I think there is so many
13 other variables that do come into play, sure. I'm
14 still all for medical treatment. I'm still for
15 that. Yes.
16 Q And you also testified that you would
17 keep a brain dead person on a respirator. Would
18 the age of that person be a relevant factor if the
19 patient were 20 versus the patient were 80?
20 A Yes. There is a lot of -- for me to
21 make these decisions such as those, there is a lot
22 of relevance with regard to age and what the
23 conditions are. Sure.
24 Q Another condition would be a diagnosis?
25 A I think that would come into play
542
1 depending on again what the condition is.
2 Q So what if the patient, regardless of
3 the condition, didn't want the medical treatment?
4 Would you still advocate that medical treatment be
5 employed, even though the patient didn't want it?
6 If it is available, that is.
7 A Again, I am all for medical treatment.
8 I still think I need to know more information
9 about the patient themselves.
10 Q The question would be whether or not the
11 patient wanted it. The patient does not want it,
12 but it is available to keep the patient alive.
13 Let's say the patient is young. Would that help?
14 Would you want that treatment to be given to that
15 patient whether or not the patient wanted it or
16 not?
17 A Mrs. Felos, you are asking me to make a
18 decision like that. I think I maybe want to talk
19 to the physicians involved in the case. In the
20 treatment of the patient.
21 Q Let me read from the deposition again.
22 Page 27, Line 11. What if the patient doesn't- -
23 want the treatment, do you think the patient
24 should have medical treatment to keep them alive
25 even if a patient does not want it?
543
1 Answer. If it's available, yes.
2 And so your belief, obviously, is that
3 is something that you would advocate for yourself
4 as well?
5 Answer. Yes. Is that -- I would
6 advocate that for myself.
7 A I recall making those statements. You
8 have to think -- I recall making those. I have to
9 think a little more into it, too. I answered
10 deposition questions as Mr. Felos was coming at me
11 with all these hypotheticals. I recall making
12 these answers. Yes. Yes. Given when you leave
13 there, you have to give -- a little more thought
14 process goes into making it.
15 Q Well, thank you. And today you are
16 saying you do agree with that? You are saying if
17 a patient does not want medical treatment you
18 would advocate that; is that correct? To keep
19 them alive?
20 MS. CAMPBELL: Objection, Your Honor.
21 Asked and answered.
22 THE COURT: I think it's been answered
23 for the third time. The first time she said it
24 would depend on the variables. So you are not
25 going to get any better with that with a general
544
1 question, Mrs. Felos. You may want to ask a
2 specific question, but that was the answer that
3 the Court remembers her saying to your general
4 inquiry.
5 Q (By Ms. Felos) Is it fair to say that
6 you would advocate being treated against your will
7 if it would keep you alive?
8 A I think to a certain -- it's a little in
9 depth in answering that question because you know
10 at the time maybe I'll go into a little detail.
11 Maybe the doctor said I was in a grave condition
12 but we can medically treatment you with
13 experimental treatment. I say no. I don't want
14 that. And if they really believe this is
15 experimental treatment, let's do it.
16 If in that case, if I did not want it
17 because you are in a state of despair when the
18 doctors are telling you so, something is so
19 seriously wrong in a grave condition, and maybe
20 that experimental treatment might cure me, sure, I
21 would go for all medical treatment because of the
22 technology these days they are making. So who
23 knows what they are going to come up with to
24 treat?
25 Being myself, maybe if I didn't want
545
1 that but they felt maybe it would cure me, they
2 tried it, it did, there you go. I'm cured. And I
3 didn't want that treatment, but I go back and
4 shake that doctor's hand and and [sic] say thanks.
5 Q So you advocate treatment against your
6 7 A For myself, I probably would.
8 Q What if you were in a condition where
9 you were not cognizant, no awareness, no
10 reasonable likelihood of you ever gaining
11 awareness. Would you want your body kept alive
12 through medical treatment and artificial life
13 support?
14 A Mrs. Felos, am I 80 or 30? That is hard
15 to say. I advocate medical treatment. Yes. I
16 recall answering again in the deposition, but
17 sitting here I -- there is -- there are still more
18 variables and I need more information.
19 Q On Page 27 of the same deposition you
20 answered that question absolutely.
21 A I recall that. I do. Again, I recall
22 Mr. Felos with all the hypotheticals and I recall
23 that answer. I do.
24 Q Again, let's say you developed cancer in
25 that same condition and in order to have a chance
546
1 of beating the cancer you would need aggressive
2 chemotherapy. Is it your position that you want
3 your body to receive radiation and receive chemo?
4 A My answer would be the same.
5 Q Do you recall what it was or do you want
6 me to read it?
7 A I remember when Mr. Felos was coming at
8 me and I was absolutely [sic], with all the
9 hypotheticals, on a hypothetical I said
10 absolutely. And leaving there, knowing there are
11 more variables to just making an on-the-spot life
12 and death decision.
13 Q So were your answers true at the time of
14 the deposition?
15 A At the time that is what -- when he was
16 coming at me with all the hypotheticals, that is
17 what came to my mind. That, and I'll leave it at
18 that. Again, there are more variables in making
19 life and death decisions than just what you gave
20 me. I need to know. I want to talk to my
21 physicians. You just can't make a life and death
22 decision, even in a three minute answer or taking
23 three minutes to answer it.
24 Q One of the things you mentioned that
25 1 would not come into consideration is what the
547
1 patient wanted; isn't that right? You look at
2 age, diagnosis, talk to your doctors, and a lot of
3 other variables; true?
4 A Are you talking for myself or somebody
5 else?
6 Q For yourself.
7 A Sure. There's a whole lot of variables
8 there.
9 Q Are you angry at Mike Schiavo?
10 A Angry? No.
11 Q Are you angry at the fact your sister's
12 money is being spent for this litigation, this
13 adversarial proceeding?
14 A I think probably yeah. I mean --
15 Q So you are angry that Mike Schiavo is
16 spending your sister's money for this litigation,
17 but not angry at him? That is your testimony?
18 A I don't think anger is a good word.
19 Q What is the right word?
20 A I think taking that money away from her
21 care, as opposed to going into the--care for Terri,
22 I think it is kind of sad it's come to this.
23 MS. FELOS: I have no further questions
24 at this time.
25 THE COURT: Thank you? Redirect?
548
1 MS. CAMPBELL: No further questions.
2 THE COURT: Stand in recess for about
3 fifteen minutes.
4 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
5 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in
6 recess.
7 (THEREUPON, A 15 MINUTE BREAK WAS HAD AT
8 10:40 A.M.)
9 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Circuit Court
10 is back in session.
11 MS. CAMPBELL: Thank you, Your Honor. I
12 would like to ask if Suzanne Carr -- we don't plan
13 on calling her back and we would ask that she
14 remain in the courtroom.
15 THE COURT: Do you intend to call her as
16 a rebuttal witness?
17 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I may call her
18 as rebuttal.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Sorry about that.
20 MS. CAMPBELL: Your Honor, the next
21 witness I would like to call is Mr. Robert
22 Schindler.
23 (THEREUPON, THE WITNESS WAS SWORN ON OATH BY
24 THE COURT.)
25 THE COURT:--- Thank you. Be seated in
549
1 the witness chair, please.
2 DIRECT EXAMINATION
3 BY MS. CAMPBELL :
4 Q Please state your full name.
5 A Robert Schindler.
6 Q Where do you live?
7 A Presently we live in St. Petersburg.
8 Q Are you married to Mary Schindler?
9 A That is correct.
10 Q How long have you been married?
11 A 1963.
12 Q Could you give us a brief background of
13 your educational history?
14 A Background, I went to Penn State
15 University for a semester. I went to Temple
16 University for three or four semesters. I went to
17 Eckerd College for a semester. I have had hours
18 and hours and hours of business seminars,
19 business related seminars.
20 Q Tell us what you do professionally?
21 A Now I am a systems designer presently.
22 Q What does that mean?
23 A I design systems.
24 What type?
25 A Mechanical systems. For example, I was
550
1 doing a great deal of refinery work involving
2 carrying different fluids in refineries. Process
3 fluids. Things like that.
4 Q You heard your wife testify yesterday
5 regarding your children and how they were raised.
6 Do you have any testimony -- without repeating
7 that same testimony, is there anything different
8 that you would like to add to that?
9 A I can embellish you on the way she
10 raised them.
11 Q How was that?
12 A Magnificent.
13 Q Please tell the Court about your
14 brother, Terri's uncle.
15 A My brother, Fred?
16 Q Yeah.
17 A My brother, Fred, was a cross between
18 Dean Martin and Tony Curtis, if you can remember
19 back to those days. He employed me as a sales
20 engineer for ten years. In that time frame, his
21 wife and daughter were killed by a train collision
22 outside of Philadelphia and he had two surviving
23 children. The eldest daughter was 17 years old
24 when this happened. It happened on May 3, 1969.
25 At that point in time, my mother was
551
1 living in Philadelphia. She was living in our
2 family home in Philadelphia. She closed the
3 residence and moved to my brother's home to care
4 for the two children. She was almost like a
5 housekeeper, so to speak.
6 She lived there. Prepared the food and
7 was a substitute mother for the children, and also
8 cooked and cleaned. Washed for my brother.
9 Q After the children moved out, did she
10 continue to live there?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What happened to your brother subsequent
13 to that?
14 A In 1980, my brother had an automobile
15 accident and suffered severe head injuries. He
16 hit a tree one evening late in the night. It was
17 on a rural country road. Someone had diverted his
18 course where he ran into, trying to avoid an
19 accident, ran into a tree. From that, he was
20 taken to the Avington Memorial Hospital in the
21 Intensive Care Unit.
22 At the time, the next day, I was
23 notified. Our family was vacationing at the
24 Jersey seashore. Stone Harbor. A doctor friend
25 of mine told me that he had been in the hospital
552
1 that evening and they admitted my brother and he
2 was in intensive care. More?
3 Q Yes, please.
4 A We returned from the vacation and went
5 to the hospital. My brother was in the intensive
6 care and he was unconscious obviously. Subsequent
7 to that episode, he was in a coma because he had
8 suffered some head injuries and was in a coma for
9 possibly -- possibly at the outside one week. He
10 came out of that coma and maybe spent another, I
11 don't remember the time frame with this one, but
12 he was in the hospital, Avington Hospital,
13 recuperating from the physical injuries other than
14 the head injuries, and from there he went to Craig
15 Institute in Colorado.
16 That came about really because of the
17 business he was in, we were in. We had associates
18 throughout the United States and everyone
19 collectively came back and indicated the best
20 possible place for rehabilitation at that time was
21 the Craig Institute in Colorado.
22 So he went to Colorado. And he was in
23 Colorado -- he came back from Colorado maybe in
24 three or four months. When he came back, he was
25 not fully recovered. He looked like he was a
553
1 recovering stroke victim where the one side of his
2 body was somewhat shut down. He had a problem
3 like speaking where there was slurring. He
4 recovered from that amazingly.
5 My brother, he used to go to the gym
6 every day. That was his work habit. He would
7 leave work around three o'clock and he would work
8 out. And he was in outstanding physical shape.
9 And the doctors were almost, not amazed, but they
10 attributed his successes [sic] and recovery to the
11 condition of his body.
12 Q He was working out. This was after the
13 accident?
14 A Prior to the accident, he worked out.
15 Then he came home and he went through like a rehab
16 and when he came out he was working out at home.
17 Also, he went back to the club that he belonged to
18 and was working out there to the point where it
19 restored him. He still had a problem with his
20 hand. It was not 100 percent. And his one leg,
21 he would drag it when he walked. -
22 Q Were you working with your brother after
23 this car accident?
24 A No. I was not. I had purchased his
25 business.
554
1 Q You continued to run the business?
2 A Yes.
3 Q How often did you see your brother?
4 A What?
5 Q After the accident. Say '83 to 1 85 time
6 frame.
7 A After the accident, I would see him on a
8 fairly regular basis. There was a period of time,
9 and I had to stop and think, between when I bought
10 the business through 1980 where we had somewhat of
11 a misunderstanding on the way I was running the
12 business. He was not pleased, frankly. As my
13 older brother, he sometimes was a father to me as
14 well. He looked at me like I was abusing what he
15 built.
16 We had quite a, for a couple of years,
17 we were kind of at each other, but when this
18 happened to him, naturally when there is a tragedy
19 in the family, it reunited everybody.
20 Q Could you describe your brother's
21 physical condition from a visual standpoint in
22 ' 84, 1 85?
23 A Visually, he would walk and walk where -- like
24 his leg would somewhat trail. There was
25 his foot was like -- stiff at the ankle. His arm was
555
1 not completely functional.
2 Q Did he continue to drive during that
3 time frame?
4 A My brother used to go to work everyday
5 up to the time that he retired in the early '90s.
6 My brother would drive to the Jersey seashore. He
7 owned a home in Stone Harbor. That is roughly a
8 hundred miles one way. He used to go down Friday
9 evening and by himself drive to the Jersey
10 seashore. Go bar hopping, if I can say that.
11 Because he was a very attractive man. He would
12 spend the weekend at his Jersey residence and come
13 back Monday mornings. That was routine.
14 Q Was your mother living with him during
15 that '83 to '85 time frame?
16 A My mother was there. She was at the
17 time in 1983, she's like 77 years old. She was
18 beginning to get a little slower on her feet than
19 what she was prior.
20 Q At any time, are you aware whether his
21 children had to step in to run his business?
22 A No way. Again, I worked with the man
23 all those years. There is no way. He had running
24 the business -- he had three people that he used
25 to consult with on financial aspects. One of the
556
1 names is a man's name everybody saw. President of
2 Shellhand Bank (phonetic) in Philadelphia. One
3 was an attorney. Another one was president of
4 another bank in Philadelphia.
5 The three of them, they were with him
6 continually through his business. He consulted.
7 He continued to operate his business the same way
8 as he did prior to the accident.
9 Q Was Terri close with your mother?
10 A She was -- Terri was. Yes.
11 Q Do you recall was Terri in Florida when
12 your mother passed away?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Let me repeat the question.
15 A Yes.
16 MR. FELOS: I believe the question was
17 clear as stated.
18 THE WITNESS: I beg pardon?
19 MR. FELOS: I object. The question is
20 asked and answered.
21 THE WITNESS: I totally misunderstood
22 what you were saying.
23 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Was Terri in Florida
24 when you passed -- when your mother passed away?
25 A No. We were all in Florida at the time.
557
1 Q Is there any way you can recall your
2 specific event?
3 A Oh? My mother passing away?
4 Q Um-hmm.
5 A She passed away on March the 7th. She
6 had been admitted into the hospital. I had some
7 discussion on this with my niece. My niece is
8 saying it was --
9 MR. FELOS: Object on the basis of
10 hearsay as to what the niece was saying.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 THE WITNESS: Pardon me. I had my
13 memory refreshed on the time frame. Can I say
14 that?
15 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Go ahead.
16 A It was somewhere between a week, maybe
17 two weeks, she was in the hospital. She went in.
18 She had a viral pneumonia-type infection and was
19 treated for that.
20 Q This was her last illness prior to her
21 death?
22 A Yes. She was treated for that.
23 Eventually it developed into a more serious
24 thing.
25 Q Did your mother have any life support
558
1 prior to her death?
2 A She was on a ventilator. She was o�,
3 ventilator. At one time she was off the
4 ventilator and she died and when we all went to
5 visit her -- and I was just talking about this
6 with my wife recently. My mother was like 80
7 years old and frail and she died ultimately of
8 kidney failure.
9 All the fluids were in her body. She
10 looked magnificent. She was there. She was off
11 the./respirator. All the wrinkles were gone
12 because her flesh had filled. Her coloration was
13 not that good, but we remarked how young she
14 looked. But for a while, I thought she was on the
15 ventilator till the end, but she was off the
16 ventilator.
17 Q Were you involved in the decision making
18 for your mother regarding the ventilator?
19 A I was not -- my brother -- I was and my
20 brother.
21 Q Were you asked to make a decision
22 whether or not to have a ventilator added to your
23 mother's care?
24 A Yes. The doctor suggested we do that
25 because of the situation when she developed
559
1 pneumonia that she needed assistance in breathing.
2 Q Were you part of the decision making to
3 remove the ventilator?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Did you and Terri have any conversations
6 pertaining to that decision making process
7 specifically?
8 A We had conversation. She was very
9 supportive to what I was doing. What the family
10 was doing. Her contention was that she loved her
11 grandmother and she wanted her alive. If you were
12 to describe that, that was her position.
13 Q In '85, do you recall your mother going
14 in the hospital during the year prior to her
15 death?
16 A My mother went into the hospital in '85,
17 in the fall of 1985. The time frame when that
18 would be is somewhere around the end of
19 September. She had been in the hospital prior to
20 that a number of times over the past years for
21 observation. I'm saying going back three or four
22 years.
23 Q Let's --
24 A -- of the sequence to her death when she
25 was in the hospital prior to.
560
1 Q Are you referring to 1985?
2 A Correct.
3 Q When your mother was in the hospital, I
4 think you said the fall of '85, were you in
5 Philadelphia or the Philadelphia area at that
6 time?
7 A We lived in Philadelphia. Correct. The
8 sequence of what happened is I sold the business I
9 had and I was in the process of moving down here
10 permanently to Florida. I spent the calendar year
11 of 1985, I spent a great amount of time here in
12 Florida. And I was in Florida and my mother got
13 ill and I went home. That is why I say this thing
14 is very vivid.
15 I went home to visit and see what was
16 going on, when she was going to be admitted into
17 the hospital, and they told me it was basically an
18 electrolyte problem. That everything was out of
19 proportion in her body. That she was only in the
20 hospital then for a few days. And I turned around
21 and flew back to Florida again. To answer your
22 question, it's a long answer, but that is the
23 answer.
24 Q Do you recall whether or not Terri and
25 Michael, where they were during that time frame?
561
1 A What time frame?
2 Q In the fall of 1 85?
3 A In October of '85 they were in Florida.
4 Q How do you know that?
5 A They were vacationing at my condo.
6 Q Were you in Florida at the same time?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Do you recall how Terri and Mike came to
9 Florida on that trip?
10 A By train.
11 Q How do you know that?
12 A Because I was in Florida when they
13 arrived. I know they told me they would never,
14 they were not very happy with the train, number
15 one. And they took the train back after a week to
16 Philadelphia. On route back to the train, they
17 were in an automobile accident.
18 Q Was anyone else on the train trip with
19 them?
20 A Brother Brian.
21 Q Michael's brother?
22 A Michael's brother, Brian.
23 Q Is there anything specific you remember
24 pertaining to that trip in October when you were
25 in Florida?
562
1 A Brian.
2 Q What is it you recall about Brian?
3 A Brian, in my opinion, of the Schiavo
4 family, Brian had all the --
5 MR. FELOS: I object. His opinion of
6 the Schiavo family is irrelevant.
7 THE COURT: Sustained.
8 A Brian was a charming man. Gushed with
9 personality. Brian went with myself and we had a
10 good time because we were on vacation. We spent a
11 lot of time in the Don Cesar in the lounge area.
12 We spent a lot of time at the pool bars.
13 Q Was Mary with you on that trip?
14 A No. I was alone.
15 Q Was your mother in the hospital in that
16 October time frame? Was that considered serious?
17 A No. She was in and out. See, I went
18 home. I went back to Philadelphia. She went into
19 the hospital and was in there for very briefly.
20 Had whatever those electrolyte problems were
21 corrected, and I went back to Florida to resume my
22 job search or business search.
23 Q When did you ultimately move to Florida?
24 A In 1986. In June. End of June 1986.
25 Q Was that after your mother passed away?
563
1 A My mother passed away March 7, 1986.
2 Q When did Terri and Mike move to Florida?
3 A In April. Give or take a week or two.
4 Q Did you assist them financially with
5 their move?
6 A I paid their moving expenses to Florida.
7 We paid to have two cats flown to Florida. Terri
8 had two cats, Tolly and Shane, that were living
9 with Terri and Michael. They were living in our
10 home in Philadelphia. When we moved we moved
11 they moved down and preceded us by a couple months
12 and we moved all the furniture and everything down
13 the end of June.
14 Q Was there ever any agreement concerning
15 the financing of the move?
16 A For me to pay it, but I would be
17 reimbursed.
18 Q Approximately how much did you think you
19 would be reimbursed?
20 A Close to a thousand dollars. Nine
21 hundred and pennies.
22 Q Was that reimbursed for all of the
23 furniture?
24 A That was their share of the moving
25 expense. United Vans moved us. I specifically
564
1 had them come in and they quoted us. It's done by
2 weight when you move. We had our house of
3 things. Here is ours. Here is theirs. So the
4 prices were segregated.
5 Q Were you employed during that time
6 frame?
7 A No.
8 Q While you lived in Philadelphia, did you
9 attend church?
10 A Did I attend church? Oh, yeah. Our
11 Lady of Good Counsel.
12 Q Did you go regularly?
13 A Every Sunday.
14 Q Did Terri go with you growing up?
15 A Yes.
16 Q After you moved to Florida, did you find
17 a new church here?
18 A We went to church at St. Johns on the
19 Beach. We did not register with the church
20 because we were not sure where we were going to
21 live. That is another story again. To answer
22 your question, yes, we went to St. Johns on the
23 Beach.
24 Q Who handled the finances in your family?
25 A I did.
565
1 Q When you moved to Florida, where did you
2 live?
3 A We lived in a townhouse in Tierra Verde
4 that we rented.
5 Q Why were you not living in your own
6 condo?
7 A Well, this background story again. When
8 we decided to move to Florida and informed the
9 family, we informed our children that we would
10 like to go to Florida. My son was at that point a
11 junior in college. My daughter, Suzanne, was
12 going to be graduating from high school that
13 summer. We said here is our intentions. We want
14 to do that. My son said that he would join us
15 after his senior year in Florida. Suzanne said
16 she would go with us.
17 So our initial thinking was Mary and I
18 would move into our two bedroom condo in Florida.
19 When Michael was informed of what we were doing,
20 they came back and said they would also like to
21 move to Florida. Could we let them use our condo
22 until they got on their feet. We said fine, but
23 the problem there was I was paying a very high
24 mortgage on the condo and I could not afford to
25 keep that condo for any length of time and carry
566
1 two rental payments.
2 My original plan was to live in the
3 condo, move to a house and sell the condo. That
4 was the original plan. So at any rate, to answer
5 your question, yes.
6 Q Were they supposed to pay you rent?
7 A I told Michael just what I said now.
8 Terri, too. I said it was costing me close to
9 $800 a month to carry that condo. That with the
10 rental for our family to live in, Mary and myself,
11 Suzanne, and eventually my son, I could under no
12 circumstances afford to pay that.
13 So the deal was roughly I'll go along
14 with that for maybe a year, but you have to split
15 the cost with me. So it was costing me 800. I
16 asked them to pay me 400 a month and consider it a
17 rental fee. He agreed to that.
18 Q Did they pay rent when they first moved
19 down?
20 A The first couple of months, because we
21 were not there, were kind of -- I didn't have a
22 double expense at that point, so there was no rent
23 charge. It was a free ride. But the rent for the
24 most part would have started in July of 1 86.
25 Was that agreement ever condensed to
567
1 writing?
2 A Well, no. Can I add something to that?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I just, as a family person, you don't
5 ask your family for something in writing. That's
6 why it was never done in writing.
7 Q So after you moved down, was rent being
8 paid at that time?
9 A The rent was being paid for roughly the
10 first year, but sporadically.
11 Q When you moved, did you have a job here
12 already?
13 A No. I did not. I was still looking.
14 Q What did you ultimately do from an
15 employment standpoint after you moved to Florida?
16 When did you get employment?
17 A I was not employed until '88. We moved
18 down in '86. I spent two years and they were very
19 difficult years. There is a variety of things
20 that happened in that time frame with Mary's
21 mother. It was a financial drain with no income
22 coming in. Expenses were very difficult, which I
23 don't think Mary ever knew that.
24 Q What did you do then in '88?
25 A I, through an acquaintance I had up
568
1 north, I started a business as a furniture
2 distributor in Florida.
3 Q How did that business go?
4 A Terrible. That was in 1989, August of
5 1989. I had to file a bankruptcy for that
6 business. It was a disaster.
7 Q What were your living circumstances then
8 after that point? During the bankruptcy time
9 frame.
10 A Well, we were living. I have to back
11 you up. We were in a townhouse in Tierra Verde.
12 At that time frame, Mary's mother had a stroke.
13 Mastectomy. A variety of illnesses. Mary began
14 flying -- her mother lived in upstate New York.
15 So Mary would fly to New York, spend a couple
16 weekends her mother, and fly back to Florida and
17 spend it with Suzanne and myself. We were living
18 in Tierra Verde.
19 What we did next is we elected to bring
20 Mary's mother down from New York. We rented a
21 home on St. Pete Beach on 55th Avenue. The reason
22 we rented that is it was a ground level home and
23 the mother was in a wheelchair so we could
24 transport her through the house and whatnot. So
25 we were in St. Pete Beach at the time.
569
1 The business collapsed. I literally
2 pleaded with Terri and Michael to get out of my
3 condo because I could not afford any longer to pay
4 the expenses for the house. Mary's mother since
5 had been in a nursing home. Her stay with us
6 lasted maybe three or four months. I finally
7 convinced Terri and Michael to please leave our
8 condo so we have a place to live. It's as basic
9 as that.
10 Q Were they paying you rent in that time
11 frame?
12 A They were not paying us rent. The rent
13 started in July, maybe of 1 86. Continued through
14 sporadically maybe July of '87. Then it stopped.
15 So there was '87, in the summer, there was
16 nothing. So I was paying both the rental unit
17 where we were living, plus my expenses for the
18 condo.
19 If I can add something to your thing. I
20 put the condo up for sale. I listed it with
21 Brook's Realty at Isla Del Sol. They came back to
22 me and told me they have a problem showing the
23 unit. Every time the bring a prospective
24 customer --
25 MR. FELOS: I object. Hearsay.
570
1 THE COURT: Have your client kind of
2 answer your question.
3 THE WITNESS: I had difficulty showing
4 the unit.
5 Q (By Ms. Campbell) That's fine. So when
6 did Terri and Mike move out of the condo?
7 A When we moved back in, which would have
8 been sometime, being somewhat vague on this,
9 sometime in 19 -- what year am I? 1989. Like in
10 the summer of 1989 they moved out. They went up
11 to some place up on 4th Street. Mary, myself, and
12 Suzanne moved back to our condo.
13 Q What were you doing employment wise in
14 February 1990 the following year?
15 A That is when Terri had her seizure. I
16 was employed by a company name of Consotech
17 Engineers in Tampa. I had just begun to work
18 after the disaster I had in August of 1989. We
19 really had no income. I fortunately had to fall
20 back on some of my -- at any rate, I got the job
21 with Consotech Engineers in Tampa.
22 Q What do you remember of February 25,
23 1990?
24 A Getting a phone call from Michael
25 Schiavo explaining something was obviously wrong.
571
1 I can recall calling my son who lived up in that
2 same area. Saying to my son, please go over
3 there. There is something afoul. Michael was not
4 very descriptive in what was happening. He
5 seemed -- I said I would like to have you go check
6 it out. See what was going on.
7 My son called me back. He said, "Dad
8 get to the hospital because they are taking Terri
9 to the hospital in the emergency vehicle." She
10 was having a problem. I was not aware at that
11 point, nor was Mary, of the severity of the
12 problem. It was not till we got to the Northside
13 Hospital up on 54th Avenue, somewhere up there,
14 that I found out actually the seriousness of what
15 was wrong with Terri.
16 Q Were you at the hospital during that
17 initial time frame?
18 A The first -- for me, the first couple of
19 days I remember sleeping there with the family.
20 Suzanne came in from central Florida, University
21 of Central Florida were she was going to school.
22 We slept there in the ICU Unit waiting room with
23 the Schiavo family.
24 Q What was your relationship with Michael
25 like at that time? How would you describe it?
572
1 A I -- let me think when that was. When
2 that happened? It was congenial.
3 Q Were you involved in Terri's day-to-day
4 care initially?
5 A At where? At Humana?
6 Q Yes.
7 A Well, when we first went in, we were
8 only there for a short period of time when Dan
9 Greco approached Mary and myself and said for -
10 MR. FELOS: I object. Hearsay.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 Q (By Ms. Campbell) At the time, were
13 any -- at the time of Terri's accident, were there
14 any legal proceedings that were begun?
15 A At the recommendation of Dan -- am I
16 saying the wrong thing?
17 Q You don't need to say what Dan told you.
18 A We were advised for expediency sake it
19 would be in our better interests if Mike was
20 appointed guardian, since he was the husband and
21 he would be the clearinghouse for the decisions
22 rather than go to all the people, the parents and
23 whatnot. So we acquiesced to that suggestion and
24 Michael became Terri's guardian.
25 Q In-those-initial days, did you see --
573
1 was Michael there assisting with Terri's care?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did you see, did you believe anything to
4 be lacking on Terri's behalf as reason for
5 Michael --
6 A No. The scene at that point, we had
7 people converging. There were a lot of people
8 that were interested. Can I have some water?
9 Thank you very much. The people were rallying
10 around us. We were all there. Everyone was
11 shocked at what was happening. And Michael, all
12 of us, our focus was Terri.
13 It was like a family unit. When there
14 is a problem like when my brother had his problem
15 in 1980, there were people coming from -- everyone
16 joins together when your family is united like
17 that. So we had a problem with Terri and we were
18 there, the families. The Schiavo and Schindler
19 family.
20 Q Do you recall was Terri on a ventilator
21 at that time?
22 A You know, I don't know. I am trying to
23 remember. I think she was.
24 Q Do you recall anything to assist her in
25 breathing?
574
1 A You are asking that question and I don't
2 know if anyone has asked me that question before.
3 I can recall visiting her in the ICU. I can
4 recall when she was isolated, in the isolation
5 room, because something was going on and they were
6 concerned about some kind of disease that was
7 contaminating everyone.
8 I remember all the beepers and
9 everything else, the tubes, but I can't honestly
10 say I can visualize her on the ventilator. Maybe
11 if you ask me later.
12 Q When you say you can visualize the
13 tubes, describe the tubes.
14 A I mean, it looked like an octopus of
15 tubes coming from her body. She had all kinds of
16 monitors. I would presume they were IV units. If
17 I remember, I think she had a tube in her
18 nostrils, that was, I think now. I'm not sure.
19 It was -- its not a very pleasant experience.
20 Q At any time, did anyone ask you whether
21 any of those tubes should be provided to Terri?
22 A Did they ask if they should be provided?
23 Q Yes.
24 A I don't think that was -- never. Not to
25 my knowledge. No. Should they be provided or
575
1 shouldn't they?
2 Q The question is at any time did anyone
3 ask you for a decision whether they should be
4 provided?
5 A No. I was not asked.
6 Q How long do you recall Terri being in
7 the Northside facility?
8 A March. Maybe April.
9 Q Were you there on a day-to-day basis?
10 A I was working in Tampa. I would go to
11 work in the mornings, come back, stop at --
12 initially, before I went to work I'd stop at
13 Northside. Then I'd go to Tampa. Then the back
14 leg, stop at the hospital to see Terri.
15 Q Was there any time following the
16 accident that you were involved in her day-to-day
17 care that you were not working? In other words --
18 A I don't know what you mean.
19 Q Well, I'll move to the next question.
20 When did you move from the condominium you were
21 living in then?
22 A The original condo I owned, we moved
23 there the following July of 1990.
24 Q Where did you move?
25 A We moved to Vina Del Mar. We moved to a
576
1 house that I rented. Let me qualify what I'm
2 saying. I made arrangements through a mutual
3 friend to rent a house.
4 Q Was your name on the lease?
5 A No. My name was not on anything at that
6 time frame.
7 Q Whose name was on the lease?
8 A Michael Schiavo. I believe, Terri.
9 Q Why was your name not on the lease?
10 A Frankly?
11 Q Yes.
12 A Because I didn't want to embarrass
13 myself with my credit rating, number one. Number
14 two, if they ever looked at my credit at that
15 point, I could not have rented anything.
16 Q So who all lived in the house at that
17 time?
18 A Mary, myself, Michael.
19 Q Was the plan for Terri to live in the
20 house?
21 A Our objective was to bring Terri -- I
22 have to back up for a second. We were having
23 problems at that time with Prudential, which was
24 her Pru care. Her carrier. We were not getting
25 the support from them to pay for the medical. I
577
1 had a heck of a battle with Dr. Newhart, who was
2 their physician in Tampa, who ruled on all the
3 cases whether they would be permitted or not.
4 I went to see him personally to try to
5 get him to at least get some finances from
6 Prudential. They were really hard-nosed. So with
7 that problem, and with Terri literally going to be
8 forced out of the hospital, if we knew we were
9 going to be bringing her home -- we wanted to
10 bring her home. So we rented the house in Vina
11 Del Mar.
12 Q What was the relationship between you
13 and Michael then?
14 A The relationship was good. Again, our
15 focus, everything we were doing was for Terri.
16 Q What happened with the expenses on that
17 house? Who paid for the expenses?
18 A They were divided. Michael --
19 everything was split in half. Michael paid half.
20 We paid half.
21 Q Was Michael working at the time?
22 A He had been working at Agostino's at
23 that time. When we first went into the house, I'm
24 not 100 percent sure if he was working or not.
25 Something says that he may have been working like
578
1 part-time. Something says he was not. I can't be
2 positive.
3 Q Who was taking care of Terri's primary
4 day-to-day needs at that point?
5 A Where was Terri now? Was she at our
6 place? I don't know what you mean by that
7 question.
8 Q Were Michael and Mary taking care of
9 Terri together?
10 A Yeah. They were continually together.
11 Q Did Terri ever come live in that house?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Later on that year, did Terri go to
14 California?
15 A She went to California for the operation
16 by a doctor called Hoshibushi. An Oriental
17 doctor.
18 Q Did you go to California with her?
19 A No. I did not.
20 Q Could you describe Terri at that time
21 frame when she went to California from a physical
22 appearance? Visual?
23 A Compared to her condition today, I think
24 she's in better condition today than she was
25 then.
579
1 Q Did you -- how much longer did you
2 continue to live in that house with Michael?
3 A We lived at the one house from August up
4 through, I believe February. The house that we
5 went into, the original house, the man that owned
6 that came up to me and said that his brother and
7 sister-in-law needed a home, so on and so forth.
8 MR. FELOS: Objection. Hearsay.
9 Relevance.
10 THE COURT: Overruled. Truth of the
11 voracity of the statement. Ms. Campbell, please
12 ask your witness to just answer your questions.
13 He gives us all the background. We can read
14 through all the history.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. Loud and
16 clear.
17 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did you live in a
18 second house with Michael Schiavo?
19 A Yes. Hemosita.
20 Q Was your name on that lease?
21 A My name was not on that lease. No.
22 Q Whose name was on the lease at the
23 second house?
24 A Michael's name.
25 Q Did you share the expenses in that
580
1 house?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Did Terri ever come live in that house?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Do you remember about how long?
6 A Sporadically. I'll answer like that. I
7 remember she was coming there. We had
8 difficulty.
9 Q What were the difficulties?
10 A Well, with her, if I remember correctly,
11 she had some problems where there was concerns
12 about her care. We could not care for her.
13 Q When you say sporadically, I don't
14 understand.
15 A She'd be okay for one day and the next
16 day there's a problem.
17 Q And she'd have to go to the hospital?
18 A She was winding up in the hospital.
19 Q So ultimately then, did Terri go live
20 somewhere else?
21 A From there she went into the nursing
22 home. Yes.
23 Q Was there a time that you and Michael
24 separated? Moved apart?
25 A Well, correct. We were at that Hemosita
581
1 address and we moved into Isla, Mary and myself.
2 I believe that was in 1 92. That would have been
3 in May of '92.
4 Q Was it an amicable separation between
5 you?
6 A It was amicable. Other than that, I
7 don't know if I can -- at that time, it was
8 amicable.
9 Q Were you involved in fund raisers for
10 Terri's care?
11 A Yeah. I was kind of like behind the
12 scenes. See, I was involved, but there were other
13 people more prominently involved than I was.
14 Q Did you provide any business, accounting
15 assistance, for Michael in that regard with the
16 fund raisers?
17 A No. I did not.
18 Q Were you aware of how much money was
19 collected through the fund raisers?
20 A There was money coming in from a variety
21 of different sources. I had people I knew sending
22 me checks from various parts of the country.
23 MR. FELOS: I believe the question was
24 did he know how much money he raised. The answer
25 is not responsive.
582
1 THE WITNESS: I'm embellishing.
2 Q (By Ms. Campbell) What type of fund
3 raising was being provided?
4 A Prudential nationally had a fund raiser.
5 There was fund raisers held on St. Pete Beach.
6 There were cake sales. The media was even
7 promoting, collecting money for Terri.
8 Q Are you familiar with what happened to
9 the money?
10 A No. I'm not familiar at all.
11 Q Do you know where the money was kept?
12 Was it kept in a bank?
13 A The money was with First Union.
14 Q At the time you and Michael separated,
15 was Michael seeing other women?
16 VIA Michael was seeing a girl by the name of
17 Cindy.
18 Q How did you feel about that?
19 A At that juncture, I felt that Michael
20 was more than likely going to get ahead with his
21 life. I thought that he would ultimately be
22 seeking a new life with another woman. To resume
23 his life after what happened to him. A logical
24 thing.
25 MS. CAMPBELL: From a time sequence
583
1 standpoint, it's clear we are going to be going
2 longer. I would suggest a break at some point in
3 time and then resume his testimony after lunch.
4 THE COURT: Obviously, we will need to
5 do that, I have an appointment over the noon
6 hour. We can go until 5 minutes to 12:00.
7 MS. CAMPBELL: Okay. Thank you.
8 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Was there a
9 malpractice litigation instituted in that time
10 frame? We're talking May '92.
11 A Yes.
12 Q Were you a named party in the
13 malpractice suit?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you involved at all in the
16 malpractice action?
17 A Behind the scenes.
18 Q What do you mean behind the scenes?
19 A I was meeting with the attorney at the
20 time on numerous occasions. Mary met with the
21 attorney all the time. I met with him
22 periodically. Usually to discuss things where he
23 had some difficulties.
24 Q Were you there during the trial?
25 A Sporadically. I was working.
584
1 Q Were you there when the verdict came in?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Do you recall who else from the family
4 was there?
5 A Mary. Our family was there.
6 Q What were you doing at the time when the
7 verdict was brought in?
8 A I was me and Bill Schiavo who were
9 writing down the numbers that this Judge Federico
10 was saying. It was as confusing as anything. He
11 quoted a number and it was unusual. I thought a
12 very unusual decision. It was hard to follow.
13 Q What did you just say?
14 A It was hard to follow it mathematically.
15 Q Thank you. Did you ever have any
16 conversations with Michael as to you receiving any
17 part of money from any award?
18 A The conversations mostly were with my
19 wife where he was making and telling her that when
20 he received his personal award money that he was
21 going to share that with us. I personally had a
22 conversation with Michael Schiavo at the Isla Del
23 Sol residence. That would have been on a
24 Thanksgiving Eve that he and I were having dinner
25 at this residence:
585
1 We were discussing the impending award
2 money and the fact that he was going to share that
3 with us, which would have paid me back all the
4 money I fronted him over the past couple of
5 years. So I viewed that settlement at the time
6 that that was going to resolve most of Michael's
7 financials.
8 I laid out a lot of money. I thought he
9 was going to pay me back, plus I expected him to
10 share in the award. And things were difficult
11 then. As a family, we struggled. Michael was
12 struggling. It was a cheap reward for Terri's
13 condition.
14 Q What do you mean by share in the reward?
15 What were your plans for the money?
16 A He was anticipating a personal award,
17 and the therapy at that time -- they were
18 anticipating a major multimillion dollar award for
19 Terri. Michael was talking primarily about his
20 personal award that, since we were going through
21 all this stuff together, I'll share that with
22 you. Maybe not those words. but interpreting
23 that.
24 Terri's money was -- God. They did a
25 study. I'm sorry, Your Honor for embellishing.
586
1 Q (By Ms. Campbell) I don't think you
2 need to go into the study.
3 A Okay.
4 Q Was there ever a time that you or
5 Michael were talking about Terri's money?
6 A Terri's money, the anticipation was that
7 there was going to be a tremendous amount of
8 money. The thought was there would be a home
9 provided for Terri and Terri would have all the
10 medical facilities in that normal household and
11 Mary and I would essentially live there with Terri
12 and look after her. That was the master plan.
13 Q Was that the master plan of Terri's
14 money or part of the money Michael received?
15 A Terri's money would be utilized to buy
16 the house that would provide for her care.
17 Q Do you remember any incident
18 specifically or argument or disagreement between
19 you and Michael over these money issues?
20 A It happened at the nursing home at Sabal
21 Palms. Yes.
22 Q Describe that incident.
23 A I will be embellishing again. It
24 revolves around there was promises made about
25 Terri's care.
587
1 MR. FELOS: Your Honor, I believe the
2 question was to describe the incident and the
3 question is -- the answer is unresponsive.
4 THE COURT: Sir, if you can just -- your
5 lawyer knows what she wants to get out by way of
6 evidence. So following her questions, be
7 responsive. If she need;: more information, she
8 will ask. If you need to explain your answer --
9 THE WITNESS: :t understand.
10 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Describe the incident
11 in Terri's room.
12 A Michael and I had a confrontation.
13 Q What happened in the confrontation?
14 A I asked Michael about Terri's medical
15 and neurological care and what he was going to
16 provide. Also, I asked him about the money he had
17 promised to repay us.
18 Q What was Michael's response?
19 A Michael told me that he was not repaying
20 the money. Forget the money. He said he did not
21 have any money. He said that as far as Terri was
22 concerned, it is his wife, he will make all the
23 decisions.
24 Q Was there any ;physical display of anger
25 or emotions?
588
1 A Michael had some books that he threw
2 across the room, pushed a table, and got up.
3 Started coming toward me. Mary jumped in front of
4 him and I thought we were going to get into a good
5 donnybrook.
6 Q What happened after that?
7 A Then Michael said that he was going to
8 have his, have us banned from the nursing home.
9 Mary was kind of dragging me out of the room down
10 the hallway. Michael ran down the hallway and
11 said something about an attorney or something.
12 Q Was there something as far as medical
13 care or treatment that you believe Terri should be
14 receiving that she was not?
15 A What precipitated my feelings was there
16 was a doctor that came in that followed up from
17 the operation in California. Dr. Yinghling. Dr.
18 Yinghling came to Mediplex. He examined Terri.
19 That evening Dr. Yinghling, we took him out to
20 dinner. We wined him. Dined him. Dr. Yinghling
21 was to explain he had seen --
22 MR. FELOS: Objection. It's hearsay
23 expressing the opinion of Dr. Yinghling.
24 THE COURT: Also something from outside
25 of court that he intends for us to believe. It is
589
1 hearsay. Sustained.
2 Q (By Ms. Campbell) Did you receive hope
3 from Dr. Yinghling?
4 MR. 'ELOS: Same objection.
5 THE COURT: Overruled.
6 A It was very encouraging, Terri's
7 prospects. The next thing was to have Terri taken
8 to hands Hospital in Gainesville. We were
9 ecstatic over that, Mary and I were. The
10 difficulty there is we had no money, and at the
11 time, the award had not come through yet.
12 When Or. Yinghling came in, we were
13 living in Hemasita. I confronted Michael. We
1.4 didn't have any money then, but when the money
15 came in, it was going to pay for Terri's moves to
16 go up to Shands Hospital. it was kind of all
17 agreed upon.
18 When the money came in and I confronted
19 Michael at the nursing home, I got a negative
20 answer. That. really upset me because I was very,
21 very upset at that.
22 Q Did Michael say anything to you
23 regarding your ability to see Terri?
24 A He was going to have us -- very briefly,
25 yes, he did.
590
1 Q What did he say?
2 A T1at he was going to have us banned from
3 the nursing home.
4 Q Did you continue to see Terri after
5 that?
6 A Absolutely.
7 Q Were you able to receive medical
8 information pertaining to Terri after that?
9 A No.
10 Q Were you ever denied information
11 pertaining to Terri's medical condition?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did Terri remain in that nursing home
14 much longer?
15 A Sabal Palms? Yes.
16 Q Was there ever an incident regarding
17 Michael or that